Camera Suggestions?

Musketeer schrieb am 28.09.2011 um 14:57 Uhr
Looking for a new camcorder and wonder what you folks out there might recommend. I'm an enthusiastic amateur and we are making short fiction films. Our style is mainly run and gun, without much reliance on a tripod for steady shots.

I'm looking for a new camera:

1) that can give me decent depth of field - our style of story is very people and dialogue focused so DOF would enhance our story telling a fair bit

2) whose output files can be edited in Vegas (I have Win 7 64 bit and Vegas Pro 64 bit, i7 processor, 2.80 Ghz, 12 Gb of RAM)

3) that can take a good wide angle shot or is capable of attaching additional lenses (since we film a lot indoors I find there are often situations where a wider angle lens than is on my current camcorder is needed)

4) that is anything up to around $1500

I looked into HDSLRs for a while but I'm not techie enough to master all the detail and I don't want to stump up the cash on all the accessories.

Am thinking of the Panasonic TM700/900 - but wonder if its sensor size is good enough to get decent DOF.

Have looked at the Canon GH10 - more expensive than the TM700/900 (and hard to get at the moment). Is it worth the extra money compared to the TM700/900? Is its DOF capability much better.

The Sony NEX-VG10 looks interesting but is too expensive for me (A$3500 in Australia vs US$2,000 in the US - shame on you Sony for price gouging us Aussies) and a bit "too professional" for me also (too many bells and whistles on it that I probably wouldn't use).

Are there any other cameras out there that I should be thinking of given my wishlist above?

Thanks

Kommentare

Eugenia schrieb am 28.09.2011 um 18:41 Uhr
No, absolutely none of the small camcorders or small P&S cams will give you good shallow DoF, and most of them have no manual controls, or 24p (24p is one of the most important things when you shoot a short movie).

The best deal is the Canon T3i, a dSLR. You don't have to learn lots of things, only how to set the camera in manual control, download and use the free Technicolor Cinestyle, and focus. That's about it. A job of about 2 hours of experimentation. Vegas Pro 10 or Platinum 11 will deal with it fine. You can email me or IM me to help you directly with that. You will only need to buy a wide angle prime lens, and possibly a zoom lens. Overall, about $1200.

The only actual cheap camcorder with full manual control and true 24p (not wrapped in 60i PF24), is the Canon HF-G10 . But that has a small sensor, so forget shallow DoF. Plus it's more expensive than a dSLR.

If you really don't want to learn how to use manual control and you want simplicity, then the best deal is the Canon S100, which was just announced (not out yet). Costs $430. Check my video-related breakdown for the cam:
http://eugenia.queru.com/2011/09/15/canon-s100-best-ps-for-video-right-now/
The only things you will have to learn how to do is exposure compensate and lock focus, pretty much (and always shoot with "flat" colors, easy to setup). Just IM me if you're interested in this solution. I'm buying one of these too. Here's a music video shot with the predecessor of the S100, the S95: http://vimeo.com/20011220
When you zoom all the way in on the S100, you will get quite some shallow DoF too btw (5x).
michaelt schrieb am 29.09.2011 um 05:30 Uhr
"Our style is mainly run and gun, without much reliance on a tripod for steady shots. "

Then you need a camera with a good image stabilizer. Your choice of Panasonic TM700/900 is very good. Also consider TM90 - it has incredibly wide angle lens that you might find extremely useful.

If you really want shallow a DOF then dSLR is the only choice. But it completely changes the shooting technique, requires a lot of preparation where pretty much EVERYTHING should be set manually.

In any case, by all means avoid any latest Canon's P&S, they all severely suffer from rolling shutter problem - here is a good example:
musicvid10 schrieb am 29.09.2011 um 06:07 Uhr
User amendegw over at the Pro forum has the 700 and loves it. I have both viewed and edited his footage for mutual projects, and I very much like what I see. Preview-ability in Vegas on different systems is not really predictable until you try it, but yours sounds favorable. Perhaps you can contact him and obtain some sample footage to play with.
Eugenia schrieb am 29.09.2011 um 08:29 Uhr
>they all severely suffer from rolling shutter problem - here is a good example

That's actually not a good example, because the guy had a camera in his hands and started walking without any regard for the camera he was holding. All dSLRs have as much rolling shutter and yet all short movies are shot with dSLRs these days. Just go to vimeo and check any short movie of worth. Even the Captain America movie used the 5D MkII, which has as much rolling shutter.

If you are going to shoot an actual movie, you're supposed to be careful how you move the camera. Even with a CCD camera we'd get dizzy if the camera goes left and right.
Musketeer schrieb am 29.09.2011 um 15:12 Uhr
Thanks everyone for your responses so far.

Eugenia, now you've got me back to thinking about the T3i/T2i option again!. But I still wonder whether I'll need a bunch of accessories - viewfinder, separate sound, lots of lenses? And is it hard to maintain good focus on a moving object with these cameras? On the other hand, it sounds like this is the only way to get decent DOF. By the way, which prime wide angle lens would you recommend.

Anyway, if I understand the responses I can get decent DOF but I'd need to invest time and effort in learinign a different way of filming.

Alternatively, I can take the easier route with the camcorders- still get good quality pictures, have some manual controls but have to give up on getting DOF.

I need to keep thinking about this dSLR vs camcorder tradeoff. Thanks for your offer of further help offline (Eugenia) and your reference to amendegw (musicvid) which I may follow up further down the line.

Any more input from you experts always welcome.

Thanks

And michaelt I'll look into the TM90 further

michaelt schrieb am 29.09.2011 um 20:42 Uhr
>>they all severely suffer from rolling shutter problem - here is a good example

> That's actually not a good example, because the guy had a camera in his hands and started walking without any regard for the camera he was holding.

It is not a good example of how to shoot movies, but it IS a good example of the specific rolling shutter problem that all latest Canon's P&S cameras suffer from.

> All dSLRs have as much rolling shutter

This is way over the top. Absolutely not AS MUCH, and absolutely not ALL.

Musketeer, you are asking for a good DOF and a good wide angle. These are completely opposite things. I wouldn't try to achieve both with a dSLR alone, and would get a camcorder. TM90 is only around $400, yet it will give you 28mm wide angle, 60p @ 28mbps, full manual control, and very good IS. For a good DOF I would get a dSLR (body-only) with a 50mm f1.8 prime lens (also cheap, somewhere between $100-200). You can definitely have both cameras and spend less than $1500. Sony just released A65 and A77 that also have 60p @ 28mbps, full manual control and continuous autofocus,
Eugenia schrieb am 29.09.2011 um 20:47 Uhr
>But I still wonder whether I'll need a bunch of accessories - viewfinder, separate sound, lots of lenses?

Sound is best to always be separate for best results (you use a clapper to sync in post processing). This also means that you will need an audio guy. I have here a breakdown of accessories a hobbyist filmmaker would need for short movies: http://eugenia.queru.com/2011/01/06/becoming-a-filmmaker-for-ultra-cheap/

>And is it hard to maintain good focus on a moving object with these cameras?

Yes, pretty hard if you want lots of DoF. The more you "stop-down" the lens, the easier would be to focus. That's why I suggested the S100, which is a P&S and it can easily be made to either be easy to focus (use it at 1x), or with shallow DoF and less easier to focus, but still acceptable difficulty (use it at 5x zoom).

>On the other hand, it sounds like this is the only way to get decent DOF.

Not all scenes require shallow DoF. But yes, if you want to make it very cinematic, you'd need a dSLR with the Technicolor Cinestyle picture style. In that case, the T3i is the best option because it's cheap for what it does.

>By the way, which prime wide angle lens would you recommend.

Any you get will be fine. There are sharpness differences between very expensive Canon lenses and cheap ones, but the internal resizing of the picture from 20-22 MP to 1080p is usually pretty bad, so it won't matter than much at the end. I use $100 lenses without that much quality loss (for video, for still pictures there IS big difference).

The important thing you need to know about short movies is that your camera must be capable of true 24p. Without 24p, the frame rate of all movies and TV series, your movie would feel amateurish. Most cheap cameras don't support this at all, and most of the rest ones that do, only record in PF24, not in real 24p. PF24 is 24p wrapped inside a 60i wrapper. PF24 requires "pulldown removal" in order to transform it to real 24p, which is something that Vegas can't do (Cineform NeoSCENE can, but that costs an extra $100). So make sure you get *real* 24p with your camera. All Canon 24p dSLRs do it right, all Canon 24p-capable P&S digicams do it right too, but only 1 consumer camcorder does it (the one I linked above). For the rest of the manufacturers, you won't know for sure until you google all these keywords to make sure your camera shoots in true 24p or not. All the ones I suggested you btw, do.

I'd still suggest you go for the S100, and use the rest of the money to get accessories.
Musketeer schrieb am 01.10.2011 um 08:39 Uhr
Thanks again everyone - some food for thought here and some more options for me to think about - ie the S100 (for some DOF options at "manageable technical difficulty") and the TM90 (for the wide angle).

Must admit I haven't checked but does the TM90 do true 24P? I'm assuming not, if I have interpreted Eugenia's comments above correctly.

Also (and back to one of my original questions) has anyone got views on the TM900 vs the GH10 - there's a $600 price difference but is the GH10 worth the extra?
amendegw schrieb am 01.10.2011 um 13:38 Uhr
"User amendegw over at the Pro forum has the 700 and loves it. I have both viewed and edited his footage for mutual projects, and I very much like what I see. Preview-ability in Vegas on different systems is not really predictable until you try it, but yours sounds favorable. Perhaps you can contact him and obtain some sample footage to play with."Hey, I just discovered this thread - and I do like my TM700. There's a good discussion of cameras over in the Vegas Pro forum on a similar subject in this thread: Sony CX-560V

I made some comments on my TM700 which I'll repeat here (btw, one of the criticisms of the TM900 is that it was not a great improvement over the TM700).

Likes:
..o Great Picture quality, particularly at 1920x1080 60p.
..o Light and easy to "run-and-gun"
..o Great optical stabilizer. Used in conjunction with Mercalli V2 it can be mistaken for tripod mounted.
..o It has a focus ring.
..o One of the few 3 sensor consumer cameras
..o I like the Zebras & Manual focus assist
..o It has a viewfinder.
..o Records to SDHC cards

Dislikes:
..o Image Quality of viewfinder and LCD is not great
..o Manual menu settings are not intuitive to my thought process.
..o I'd like more hardware knobs & switches rather than software based controls.
..o Mic picks up slight fan noise.
..o Can't switch mic to stereo from 5.1 in the "auto" mode.
..o And probably my biggest "issue" is that the auto WB & exposure is slow to respond

Here as short test video (downrezed from 1920x1080 60p to 960x540 30p: Peacock the Sequel. fwiw, all footage in this vid was handheld - stabilized with the TM700's excellent optical stabilzer and further processed with Mercalli V2 - comparable to tripod (at least to my eyes).

Here's some source footage 1920x1080 60p: parrots.zip

Finally, if the "depth of field effect" is a prime critera for your selection, is suspect you will be happier with a DSLR.

Good Luck!
...Jerry

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michaelt schrieb am 03.10.2011 um 18:42 Uhr
Canon is way behind the competition, none of their cameras support 60p yet. No P&S, no dSLRs, not even camcorders.

Musketeer, I recommend you to compare 24P vs. 60P - I can guarantee you would prefer 60P instantly. In the end, it comes down to personal taste. If you find the quality better - who cares whether it's 24p or not, and whether 24p is true or fake.

Also, the spec of S100 is good on paper only, it doesn't have ANY reviews yet, not to mention its video quality. It is a high-end compact P&S with 99.9% of its main use intended for photos, not video. It will never come close to a dedicated camcorder. On the other hand, T700/900/90 has been reviewed many times, from amateurs at amazon.com to professionals at camcorderinfo.com .