I've looked over the spec for your Panie on the Panie site;-

"1,080/"

Would the conversion from 50p to interlace, in your project, and then to DVD create an issue?

G

Graham, I am suspecting encoding artifacts, but interlace artifacts is a close second suspect. But without an example to look at, we can only guess.

fwiw, the HA1920 setting on the TM900 produces interlaced footage. So, the OP appears to be doing everything correctly and he is doing no deinterlacing or resizing in his project (except where Vegas deinterlaces to resize to SD).

I'd like to see an example as well, but I'm not sure how that can occur (mail us an optical disc? :-) Well, I guess if he were able to duplicate the issue on a short segment, create a .iso, put that in a downloadable location that might help (a stretch).

Also, the OP wasn't clear whether the playback problems were on the DVD or BluRay or both. If it is only on the BluRay, reducing the bitrate from 25Mbps to something lower might help. If the problem is on DVD only, the problem may be the moire/twitter we've seen when converting interlaced HD->SD - a better description might help. If the problem is on both, I'm at a loss.

A puzzlement??

...Jerry

Edit: Re-reading the original post, I'm not sure he's producing BluRays, rather just using the BluRay render template. More clarifications are needed.
Edit2: Still thinking about this... if the destination is DVD only, try setting a deinterlace method in your project settings (either blend or interpolate) and render to the "DVD Architect PAL Widescreen" template (you'll also need to render a Dolby Digital AC-3 sound file). If that still doesn't work you can add a tad of Gaussian Blur or "Reduce Interlace Flicker" to your footage.

Reading the OP it looks like he's rendering to a BD template and then in DVDA making a PAL SD DVD. That means the footage is being encoded twice to mpeg-2 which certainly isn't going to help.

Rereading the scant information again I'm thinking it a compression problem as he says on vertical and horizontal lines on things like surf. Not that there's a lot of hard edged lines in surf but it sure is a beast to encode.

Bob.

Hi, thanks for answering .-)

An example.
his is Omaha beach in Normandy



The fence and the vertical lines in the houses on the right at the end of the clip show this effect. On the TV it is more pronounced. While the camera is panning there is some undulation on the horizontal linesas well, as if there were filmed through hot air in a desert scene.

Hi everybody

While i was preparing an example it seems that there came a lot of postings, I'll take a look at that and answer them, I just sent the example BEFORE noticing your postings :-(

THANKS! by the way :-)

I don't think so, i used interlaced recording
(HD 1080-50i (1920x1080; 25.000 fps))

@Edit: I just burn DVD.

@Edit2: I'll try the method you mention on Edit2 and tell you about the results (Will take some time)

As you may have noticed by now, I'm not very experienced :-)

As for the information, as a newbie I'm not sure what would be useful and what not. Please just ask :-)

Maybe this helps:
For the project properties I used "Match Media Settings" and clicked on an original file. This should have set the properties correctly, if I understand it right.

Then for the rendering I used "Render as" with "Match project settings" checked which gives
Main Concept MPEG-2
=Bluray 1980x1080-50i, 25 Mbps

Unchecking "Match project settings" shows an lot of other possibilities. Perhaps there is something there to it? Yes my DVD was done through DVDA,


Maybe I'm wrong choosing main Concept...?

If INSTEAD I go directly to "Burn DVD" the video format is given as
MPEG-2 720x576-50i, 16:9 (PAL)


Thanks for your patience :-)

"Match Media Settings" for project properties is correct. However, render to the output format for delivery - as I understand it that's PAL DVD Widescreen. Make sure you set a Deinterlace method as Sony Vegas deinterlaces to resize (even interlaced footage), and render quality to "Best"

...Jerry

PS: Here's a NTSC oriented tut. Should be pretty easy to translate to PAL. You can experiment with the need for "Reduce Interlace Flicker" & the Sony Sharpen FX.

Hi

First results :-)

I followed the instructions in the very interesting tutorial (for PAL but that's no problem) and burned a DVD

I also uploaded the same clip to youtube without previous rendering



The white boat in the foreground, the boats masts, the small building on the left of the bigger (grey) buildings on the right and the horizontal lines of the building on the right hand between the palm trees show noticeable flicker in the movie from the DVD. It is barely noticeably if at all in the uploaded youtube file.

BTW and fwiw the original .mts file shows some flicker on the horizontal lines on the buildings but much less. The white boat too, a little, but its not noticeable on the masts.


Anyway I'm learning a lot, thanks

jorge

jorge,

First, your video is private.

Second, did you try the same workflow as the tutorial but w/o the Sharpen FX (remove it completely)? If it looks too soft, remove the "Reduce Interlace Flicker". Make sure the Rendering Quality is set to Best.

If it's still no better, you may have hit the "brick wall" that many of us have seen when rendering from HD to SD. Here's a nice long read: HD to SD Challenge

There's a Lagarith technique near then end to that thread that you might try.

Another technique to help the flicker is at add a touch of Gaussian Blur (I've not had much success with this - it reduces the flicker, but makes the image too soft).

Also, I've read some recent good reports about TMPGenc. My trial on that software has expired - maybe someone who has can chime in on this technique.

If none of those things help I've exhausted ideas.

...Jerry

Jerry

Private: Ouch! I meant unlisted. I changed that now, fwiw :-)
Second, already your comments have given me more ideas (and understanding) as to start some other trials of my own. I'll test under more controlled conditions, taking into account different settings in my camera and see what happens.
I'll also try what you say. We have lots of vineyards around here and the landscape is full of wires and sticks just waiting to be filmed and start flickering :-)

maybe I'll come back later with other questions and (hopefully) w a report on how i solved the problem (less probably, though :-)

Thanks for your support

Jorge

BTW do you (or anybody else) know about some literature on this kind of issues (compression, Interlacing, flicker...). I'm trying to solve problems as they appear but my general knowledge on technique is not very solid. The Vegas manual is not very "didactic". My general knowledge is based on "The Filmmaker's Handbook" by Archer and Pincus.

Again THX !

"BTW do you (or anybody else) know about some literature on this kind of issues (compression, Interlacing, flicker...). I'm trying to solve problems as they appear but my general knowledge on technique is not very solid. The Vegas manual is not very "didactic". My general knowledge is based on "The Filmmaker's Handbook" by Archer and Pincus."

Try reading the camera review here. Pages 11 and 12 may give you a lot of insight into the origins of a lot of the problems you're trying to understand. I'd quote the most interesting bits but the document is copy protected.

Bob.

Jorge,

Can you put a few seconds of your source footage in a place that is downloadable? I'd like to take a shot at a few ideas.

If you don't have a place to put the footage, you can sign up for the free Dropbox (that link will get both of us an additional 250MB of storage). Once you get Dropbox installed, you would drag your .mts clip to the Dropbox Public folder, right-click on the file, Dropbox->copy public link. Then paste the result back to this thread.

...Jerry

Thanks Bob :-)

Hi Jerry

Hope I did it right :-)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67442208/00142_20110721_113720.mts

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67442208/00382_20110606_214746.mts

"Hope I did it right :-)"Pretty close, if you enter the URLs like this:

[link=http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67442208/00142_20110721_113720.mts]
[link=http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67442208/00382_20110606_214746.mts]

You will get linkable entries, like this:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67442208/00142_20110721_113720.mts
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/67442208/00382_20110606_214746.mts

This just makes it easier for downloading.

...Jerry

PS: I'll play with this for a while; may-or-may-not improve on what you've done.

Well, I'm somewhat disappointed with my effort. Mine was a long and complicated process for a marginal improvement. I don't hink there's any way to fix the flicker/twitter in the highrise in the second scene. In any case, here's my result: jorge.zip. You'll need to drop the .mpg & .ac3 into DVDA to burn a DVD.

...Jerry

PS: Nice dog! Is it a Golden Retriever?

"Well, I'm somewhat disappointed with my effort."

Don't be. I downloaded the footage and gave up before I started. It looks fine but I don't have eyes and experience good enough to detect the kinds of problems that cameras can create that only showup down the chain. I do know from experience many of them can be a nightmare to solve and even when solved the solution means you're spending time and energy wrangling the problem that should be going into framing and lighting and all the stuff that tells the story.

That's why I sent Rabsamir off to read a real camera test. Broadcasters just want images taken that they know will work right through the distribution chain which isn't that much differenent to what we're after. Apart from the camera itself camera settings such as Detail can have an impact on these kinds of problems. Dialing Up detail can make for nice pictures at 1080 and big problems after downscaling and make noise worse as well. If pays to start trying to wrangle the problem in the camera.

Worth noting that all but the most expensive (>$50K) cameras have some issues out of the box in this area. Certainly my EX1 isn't immune and tests of the C300 show it too isn't perfect when it comes to aliasing.

Bob.

Thanks Jerry, I downloaded the files. I'll look at them later, I'm working the dog now.

BTW this is not a Golden Retriever, it is a Hovawart (pronounced more or less "hofavart", a German breed). It's bigger than the GR and comes also in black and black&tan. If you're curious you can see some pictures of him at

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/170515/Baron-vom-Fechenbacher-Schloss

We call him Samir

Jorge

Hi Bob

I've read the camera test in great AWE :-) It made me suspect, from my very humble point of view, as you say, that there are issues that are just there and dependent of variable circumstances.

Among other things one of my problems is that I don't have much experience and have never been working with others, so I just don't know what is acceptable (or worth resignation - spending lots time and energy for little improvements) and what can be improved. Watching TV in HD makes me expect the same results from my movies (!)

I know, i know, one buys a camera and wants results like a pro, I apologize, I really do :-)

Jorge