Video review of HDR-HC3 for neophytes

Spot|DSE schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 05:23 Uhr

GREAT show as always Benjamin. It's well written, edited, and compressed, but have to insert a comment about this episode:
Tiffany states unequivacably "that you shouldn't attempt to edit on a laptop unless you have a duo core, etc, etc.
This is simply false. HDV has identical datarate to DV, and while it's slower to decode, MANY computers offer decoding on the video card. Vegas doesn't access this, but bear in mind that's not an accurate comment. HDV is "sucked" into the computer exactly the same way as DV, so I was confused by the comment that "getting footage into the computer is much more difficult." I'm wondering if you had challenges with the downconvert settings?
Additionally, the low light sensitivity of the camcorder is the best of any HD camcorder sub 15k in price, so I wasn't sure of where you were going with the comments that "it's not the best in low light." What is better in the price range?
Speaking of price range, where did you find an HC3 from an authorized dealer for 1000.00-1200.00?
To suggest that there is no benefit to shooting HDV "unless you have a high-def TV and all that other stuff" is not at all accurate; most folks are shooting HDV and downconverting either in-camera or in NLE, and it gives them a significantly sharper image. In fact, it's impossible to tell the difference between HDV-acquired footage (even with this little camera) that has been downconverted to SD, and Beta SX footage.
Tiffany's comment that the Tivo requires a "bigger hard drive because of the compression" isn't accurate either, but that's not really camera-related. The Tivo footage is exceptionally compressed, and unrelated to HDV, as it's MP4, and has user-configured compression, but at no point is it "larger" than HDV files.
Very much enjoy watching your various episodes, but this one has a lot of questionable comments, even from a consumer perspective.
I'm not a huge fan of this camcorder for most things, given the several weaknesses, but from the consumer side, the HDMI output is really sweet, and the picture quality for the $$ is simply amazing.
Sorry to ramble on.<O>

I LOVED the walk around your studio, you've got a super sweet setup there. Keep em' coming!

Ben1000 schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 15:37 Uhr

Hi, Douglas...

Thanks for the comments. Of course, you are a very knowledgable guy, and probably don't appreciate the fact that Tiffany is there to present the 'view of the beginner', so quite a few of the things she says will not have the exact correct wording, and she stumbles over terminology sometimes...

That being said, unless you make a DV proxy (using your great software. We should review that!), it's tough to edit HDV on a slower laptop. It has nothing to do with getting 'sucked' in, but is the process of edited and then rendering that is the killer for HDV on slower computers.

We looked around the 'net and found the HC-3 at Ecost for $1199. They had a coupon a while back for $1099.

True, there are other benefits to recording in HDV for folks who will downsize or archive their footage, but for the typical consumer, they will likely not enjoy the benefits of the cam without an HD-TV to watch the video on, and could get better low-light video with another, cheaper SD CAM. I expect you'd agree on that one..

Thanks, and keep watching! :-)

Best,

Benjamin

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http://www.neo-fight.tv [The "Techno-Debate" Video Podcast]

riredale schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 15:48 Uhr

Not wishing to pile on here, but buying something on the Internet is really a two-step process. You find a low price, then check to see if the seller is legit. ResellerRatings says "eCost" is horrible, a scammer. You call them up to buy the camera at the advertised price, and they refuse to sell to you unless you buy additional accessories with a 1,000% markup. If you continue to insist that, no thanks, you just want the camera, then the camera suddenly is on back-order--"call again in a week."

p@mast3rs schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 16:21 Uhr

Two points here about two different posts.

First, I understand Tiffany is supposed to be the "beginner" however, she is there on the screen and stating facts (regardless whether they are corect or not) and that will influence buyers either way. It would be a shame for Sony to lose out on a sale because Tiffany got a few facts mixed up. It is entirely possible to give a beginners point of view but also have all of your facts straight which is what I think DSE was suggesting. Overall, a nice production.

WRT to Rieredales post, Im surprised someone hasnt stuck it to these scam shops yet. Wouldnt it be an easy task to call up the store and get quoted for a cam (i.e $1200) and say no to the rest of the "options" only to "cave" at the end. Receive the products and then attempt to return the options for a refund and when you dont get one, file a dispute with your credit card agency? Perhaps its not very ethical but then again, niether are the scammers you are dealing with. Anyone see why this wouldnt work?

Grazie schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 16:27 Uhr

B and H have it for $ 1,199.95..

apit34356 schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 17:24 Uhr

Ben1000, well done show.

A lot of noise is being made about Tiffany comments,( they are her stated opinions). Everyone should try to remember that she's playing the part of a consumer who is a beginner and is non-tech savy, but likes the benefits of some tech if is not hard to use,( remember how many consumers owned VCRs that could not program the clock on it). So, how many non-tech savy beginners will be running PP2 on a laptop? Maybe, Sony movie studioHDV (if they are smart) if they buying from a major retailer. If you downconverting HDV to SD in the camera to laptop, it is not that differcult to see beginners arguing about low light issues and comparing SD cameras to HDV. I believe that similar discusions have occur on the this forum. I do not support all her conclusions about the HC3, it is a good camera to start with on a beginner's budget. But if you don't have a little tech savy, HDV will be a tough struggle.

johnmeyer schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 17:37 Uhr

That being said, unless you make a DV proxy (using your great software. We should review that!), it's tough to edit HDV on a slower laptop.

I want to echo all the comments Spot made. You definitely do not need a dual core computer to edit HD. I have a 3.5-year-old single-core, single-thread 2.8 GHz P4. It wasn't even the fastest computer at the time I purchased it. Using this "ancient" computer, I edit HDV from my FX1 using Intermediates, not Proxies, and the preview keeps up just fine, as long as I use Preview resolution (which is what I use for DV as well). The place where the brand new computer would be fantastic is that it would cut way down on the render time (true for DV as well), and would be fast enough that, with the addition of HD Connect, I could capture directly to the intermediates, thus significantly reducing workflow time.

So here's the main point: The time I spend in front of my old computer, and the ability to get things done with HDV, once I have created the intermediates, would not be greatly reduced by getting a really fast computer. However, the end-to-end time would be hugely reduced (bad adjective, but I want to make the point) with a faster computer because of the reduced time to get to the intermediate AVI files, and the reduced render time. However, neither of these operations requires my presence in front of the computer. The point is that the editing itself is pretty darned fast. Of course if you're trying to do 3D fX, composites, etc., you definitely want the faster computer. But that's true even for DV.

Ben1000 schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 20:10 Uhr

John, I think your informed post proves my point about consumers and HDV. I doubt most consumers will want to go with 'intermediates' or even proxies, while a pro like yourself has no trouble understanding it..

By the way, I've purchased through eCost many times, and found them to be extremely reputable and an 'official' dealer of Sony equipment. I've never had any isse with items not being complete, or a problem with returns... WMMV...

Finally, please remember that this is an unpaid-for fledgling podcast. No one receives any renumeration yet, and we're barely covering our costs. I'd like us to be able to quit our day jobs and put the time into the shows that they deserve, and hopefully that will happen, but we're not their yet. I'm actually flattered that folks would hold us up to 'broadcast-network' standards, for a show that's 3 months old..

Thanks to all who continue to watch.

Best,

Benjamin

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http://www.neo-fight.tv [The "Techno-Debate" Video Podcast]

johnmeyer schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 20:30 Uhr

I doubt most consumers will want to go with 'intermediates' or even proxies, while a pro like yourself has no trouble understanding it..

I certainly agree with that (including the part that characterizes me as a "pro"). However, if this is the case, then you should recommend that no one use Vegas to edit HDV because even with the fastest computer, it cannot reliably edit native m2t files. This is a question not only of performance, but also precision, as Spot has described in many posts and articles. Other editing software is more facile in dealing with MPEG files, including m2t, but Vegas is not. Therefore, whether they want to or not, if any person -- consumer or pro -- wants to edit HDV in Vegas, they have to generate a proxy or intermediate.

Now if you are saying that a proxy is more consumer-friendly, then I'd disagree with that. It is actually far more difficult, since you have to "shift" back to the m2t prior to rendering, a step not needed with intermediates. The only "consumer-friendly" approach would be if Vegas could edit m2t's directly and do so with performance and precision.

Jayster schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 20:32 Uhr

Most of us are so used to HDV that we don't even think about the challenges. But I can tell you that if my father bought an HDV camera, he'd be baffled as far as how to edit it. He hasn't read JohnMeyer's lengthy workflow tutorial about downconverting, nor would he understand it. He'd wonder what's the advantage of all the effort and steps that go into downconverting when all he's likely doing is cuts and burning to DVD for display on his 27" NTSC, SD television.

Seems like the key to success for a consumer-level HDV camera would lie in the software that gets bundled with it and the simplicity of the instructions. There are lots of DV cameras that succeed in this arena. They won't get the quality of results that we do, but the consumer might not want to put in the time, effort, and money to get those results.

I haven't actually seen what gets bundled with the consumer HDV cameras, so others may be able to comment better than I would. If a camera came bundled with Cineform HD Connect, the intermediaries could probably be used in practically any consumer-level editor that accepts avi files (?). Also, perhaps it could be said that a review should indicate that HDV has big advantages for those who may get more serious about digital video or who will pursue quality to a higher degree.

riredale schrieb am 19.07.2006 um 23:28 Uhr

I'm too lazy to look this up myself, but how do Vegas Jr. (or whatever it's called at the moment) and Pinnacle's Studio 10 do HDV? I think they tout the fact that they can work with it, so how do they do it?

Spot|DSE schrieb am 20.07.2006 um 02:00 Uhr

Yes, Vegas "jr" otherwise known as Movie Studio does indeed do HDV, and quite well, actually.

Ben, you raise some salient points, and I agree with most of what you say regarding consumers, but facts are facts about the "difficulties of capture" still aren't quite so. I wondered why you didn't comment on how you can just downconvert to DV and still have an outstanding image, and that captures as DV.

I really didn't mean to start a debate. I watch your stream somewhat religiously, and have forwarded it to several manufacturers. Maybe it's because I know this particular camera intimately, and was sort of surprised to hear the "consumer" view somewhat "off."
So in case it got lost, I'm really impressed with what you're doing with your show, and how you assemble it, and most of the time I agree with you. (except for this and your review of the "cheap teleprompter :-) )

Ben1000 schrieb am 20.07.2006 um 02:19 Uhr

Thanks, DSE... I admire all the work you've done with Vegas and other products, and I hope I'll get the chance to work with you in the future. If you would ever like to do a 'guest spot' (pun intended), let me know... :-)

Best,

Benjamin

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http://www.neo-fight.tv [The "Techno-Debate" Video Podcast]

PeterWright schrieb am 20.07.2006 um 04:15 Uhr

Ben - just had a look - nice work, well done.

Rather than putting out the message about needing a super fast computer, the angle I would have pushed for consumers is that although there is now a new HDV format, there is no need to think you need to spend more money on a new computer. For editing, the HDV footage can be easily converted to SD DV, using software such as Vegas, then swapped back to the original HDV footage before output. The easiest way to do this is with Gearshift, costing just $50, which ain't much in the context of a $1200 camcorder.

I often edit HDV on a 1.6Ghz laptop using DV proxies - easy!

p.s. glad you highlighted the lack of mic or headphone sockets - a bad oversight IMO.

Peter