Comments

Musicvid wrote on 7/22/2019, 5:18 AM

You did not tell us how you are playing your files on your HDR television.

Media players usually downsample the stream, and probably only one input on your set would even handle it from a worthy device.

Also, this information for your source and render is needed in order to get support.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

Alldu wrote on 7/22/2019, 5:55 AM

You did not tell us how you are playing your files on your HDR television.

Media players usually downsample the stream, and probably only one input on your set would handle it.

Also, this information for your source and render is needed in order to get support.

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-to-post-mediainfo-and-vegas-pro-file-properties--104561/

Thank you for your reply, Musicvid!

I play the file via hard drive connected to an UHD player Sony UBD-X700 then feeding it to my LG OLED E6. The HDR flag goes up, but the picture does not look like HDR at all. Also, even when I play both files side to side on my non-HDR computer monitor, I can see the difference in contrast and saturation, so I get the point that something is off with the rendered file even without an HDR monitor.

Here's the original file data:

General
Complete name                            : D:\Movies\Test\00102.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media
Codec ID                                 : isom (isom/iso2/mp41)
File size                                : 5.43 MiB
Duration                                 : 3 min 36 s
Overall bit rate                         : 210 kb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-07-20 09:26:13
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-07-20 09:26:13
Writing application                      : Lavf58.28.102

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@High
HDR format                               : SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible
Codec ID                                 : hev1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                                 : 3 min 36 s
Bit rate                                 : 207 kb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Variable
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Minimum frame rate                       : 23.974 FPS
Maximum frame rate                       : 23.981 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.001
Stream size                              : 5.36 MiB (99%)
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-07-20 09:26:13
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-07-20 09:26:13
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : PQ
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries        : BT.2020
Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0000 cd/m2, max: 10000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level              : 10000 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level        : 3404 cd/m2
Codec configuration box                  : hvcC

Here's the one I tried to render out:

General
Complete name                            : D:\Movies\Test\Untitled.mp4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (isom/mp42)
File size                                : 323 KiB
Duration                                 : 3 s 755 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 705 kb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-07-22 09:50:54
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-07-22 09:50:54

Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.2@Main
HDR format                               : SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible
Codec ID                                 : hvc1
Codec ID/Info                            : High Efficiency Video Coding
Duration                                 : 3 s 754 ms
Bit rate                                 : 511 kb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.003
Stream size                              : 234 KiB (72%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2019-07-22 09:51:44
Tagged date                              : UTC 2019-07-22 09:51:44
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : PQ
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries        : BT.2020
Mastering display luminance              : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Codec configuration box                  : hvcC

And here's Vegas file properties (the original uploaded to Vegas):

General
  Name: 00102.mp4
  Folder: D:\Movies\Test
  Type: Intel HEVC
  Size: 5,56 MB (5 689 699 bytes)
  Created: Saturday, July 20, 2019, 12:26:17 PM
  Modified: Saturday, July 20, 2019, 12:26:18 PM
  Accessed: Monday, July 22, 2019, 1:38:53 PM
  Attributes: Archive

Streams
  Video: 00:03:36,917, 24,000 fps progressive, 3840x2160x32, HEVC

ACID information
  ACID chunk: no
  Stretch chunk: no
  Stretch list: no
  Stretch info2: no
  Beat markers: no
  Detected beats: no

Other metadata
  Regions/markers: no
  Command markers: no

Media manager
  Media tags: no

Plug-In
  Name: mxhevcplug.dll
  Folder: C:\Program Files\VEGAS\VEGAS Pro 16.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\mxhevcplug
  Format: Intel HEVC
  Version: Version 1.0 (Build 8532)
  Company: MAGIX Computer Products Intl. Co.

Appreciate your input!

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/22/2019, 7:35 AM

So from the file properties we see that you have rendered the file with success to a PQ file with 10bit 420 HEVC, as required by HDR-TVs.

So I think that the issue derives from your Playback unit maybe. I do not know how you run the Playback from the UHD Player. Maybe another Approach would be to Play back the file from a Harddisc.

 

Alldu wrote on 7/22/2019, 7:50 AM

So from the file properties we see that you have rendered the file with success to a PQ file with 10bit 420 HEVC, as required by HDR-TVs.

So I think that the issue derives from your Playback unit maybe. I do not know how you run the Playback from the UHD Player. Maybe another Approach would be to Play back the file from a Harddisc.

 

Well, I connect the hard drive with the file on it to the UHD player, go to a player menu and just choose to play a file. So it feeds the file to the TV. This is how it usually goes for all the HDR files, and they work perfectly... But not the file I render out of the Vegas. If I connect the drive to the television directly, it won't play it, as I suspect the TVset doesn't play HEVC mp4.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/22/2019, 8:09 AM

Another issue could be, that your LG does not understand the HDR flag (for whatever reason). I am even not sure if there is a PQ flag really in the rendered footage. Means that you would have to switch the LG manually to HDR PQ - and that is where it could become hard (because some Sony HDR TVs can be adjusted manually to PQ or HLG, but I think that the LG-TVs may not allow that you Switch the Monitor manually to PQ or HLG).

Alldu wrote on 7/22/2019, 12:38 PM

Even though your source file is 4k REC 2020, it does not report it as being HDR.

It says vanilla 4:2:0 YUV 8-Bit, but not HDR 10-Bit (REC 2020 accommodates both). The color space gets screwed up when you call one thing as the other when processing and rendering.

Rendering an 8-Bit file in a 10-Bit container does not make it HDR; it's just the same amount of water in a bigger bucket.

Well, it does say here it's 10-bit HDR:

Bit depth                                : 10 bits

HDR format                               : SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible

Or am I missing something?

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/22/2019, 1:12 PM

I read here also 10bit, PQ, rec2020 and a max of 10.000 nits for the source file. What should be missing here?

Musicvid wrote on 7/22/2019, 1:50 PM

Well, it does say here it's 10-bit HDR:

Bit depth                                : 10 bits

HDR format                               : SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible

Or am I missing something?

Oh, I see. 4:2:0 YUV 10-bit is pretty confusing, so I don't know what it means.

If your source was actually 8 bit that had been rendered as if 10 bit (second generation), it would look like that, which is a bit strange. Where did you get it?

If you made it yourself with Vegas RGB Solid Color, it is still 8 bits depth per color channel, no matter how you encoded it.

fr0sty wrote on 7/22/2019, 4:43 PM

I render and view HDR on my LG55c7P OLED TV just fine.

1. Does the project look different when in Vegas?

2. What are your settings at in Vegas? The project shuold be set to HDR mode from project settings. Your TV must be connected to a HDMI 2.0 or higher capable video card and Windows 10 must have deep color/HDR mode enabled on the LG display in order for Vegas' HDR previews to work properly.

3. Is your SOURCE media 10 bit or higher? If you take a 8 bit clip and color it in Vegas and render it out HDR, it is not going to make it HDR, you must start with 10 bits or higher at the source.

4. Is the color space set correctly for your source media? When doing timelapses, I must take my PSD still image files I render out from lightroom and tell Vegas they are rec2020 color space by right clicking on the image sequence, selecting properties, and specifying the rec2020 color space in that menu. Look at your scopes, if they do not go above 100 nits, you know your source media either isn't 10 bit or higher, or its color space is incorrectly specified in Vegas.

5. Make sure you aren't using color curves, they clip levels to 100 nits as that plugin hasn't been properly updated to work in 10 bit.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/22/2019, 11:34 PM

Gentlemen, even if the source footage would be 8bit only, what we di not have here; but even then the footage can be rendered to an HDR file. Right, HDR are specified to be 10bit (PQ, HLG) or 12bit (Dolby Vision), but there are some Sony Camcorders on the market that shoot HDR with 8bit only. But that does neither restrict the gamma nor the gamut.

The clipping with color curves can be avoided in Vegas if the standard ACES are not used but other ones.

Musicvid wrote on 7/23/2019, 8:29 AM

@Alldu

Please upload your original source file to a legitimate fileshare, such as Drive or Dropbox. Rogue links will not be clicked. That way we can determine if the DATA is ten bits, not just the container, thanks.

😮

8->8 bit

10->10 bit

8-10 bit

fr0sty wrote on 7/23/2019, 1:38 PM

HDR requires 10 bit by standard (which is why the full name of the standard is HDR10). Anything short of it is not HDR, even if it does use a wider gamut (which is why the name HDR references dynamic range, but not gamut). Most current Dolby Vision is 10 bit, though it does support 12.

 The purpose of HDR is to deliver at least what human vision is capable of perceiving; a contrast range of at least 10,000:1. This equates to approximately 700 levels from black to white. Anything at or above this be considered HDR. 8-bit video is 2 to the 8th power  = 256 levels, not even remotely close to HDR. 10-bit is 2 to the 10th power = 1,024 levels.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/23/2019, 2:39 PM

How long ago did Marco and I test if files are 8 or 10bit using the histogram in Vegas? Must be 5 years...

So nothing new here. It would be more appropriate to know how the footage was shoot. If the footag was shoot with a GH5 or an FS7 or an EVA1, or even with an GH4 and an Shogun, then we know that it is 10bit. It is as simple as that.

And no frosty, fortunatly the purpose of HDR is not to deliver what the human eye can perceive (the number of stops is still higher then our 14+ stops cameras can deliver). And no, eveything that delivers more then 6-7 stops is HDR, and for sure you can show also 10 or 12 stops with 8bit (simply because you can alloate also the 256 levels to 10 or 12 stops). Sure, there are standards that talk about specific gama curves and gamuts, and it is clever to stick to that if you grade HDR. But that is not the central question of this thread here. The question is what goes here wrong, and sthat is not an 8bit/10bbit issue here.

fr0sty wrote on 7/23/2019, 5:12 PM

The HDR standard being referenced here, the only one supported by Vegas, requires 10 bit video. We can spiral out into semantics over the difference between the standard and the definition, but to help this person with their problem, it is important that they know the HDR we are talking about (HDR10) that Vegas 16 supports does indeed require the source material to be 10 bit. As Musicvid points out, you're just "adding air" if you try to spread that 8 bit video across a 10 bit range.

I do see that the source material is 10 bit, I missed that they posted that earlier... so try this. In Vegas, right click on the source file, go to properties, and in the color space set it to Rec2020 (1000 nits). See if that helps. If not, just try Rec2020. Sometimes I have to specify the color space to get it working right. Look at your scopes.. are they cropped at 100 nits? If so, something is throwing them off, like an incorrect color space setting in media or project settings or you have the color curves plugin in use at some point.

Musicvid wrote on 7/23/2019, 7:08 PM

I don't have any indication the original example was shot on a camcorder. Nor do I think it was a high-bit float graphic from Photoshop. But we'll never know unless we see it, ...

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/24/2019, 9:56 AM

The HDR standard being referenced here, the only one supported by Vegas, requires 10 bit video. We can spiral out into semantics over the difference between the standard and the definition, but to help this person with their problem, it is important that they know the HDR we are talking about (HDR10) that Vegas 16 supports does indeed require the source material to be 10 bit. As Musicvid points out, you're just "adding air" if you try to spread that 8 bit video across a 10 bit range.

Sure, you add no original informaion if you render 8bit to 10bit (at the best some Interpolation). BUT even if the original footage would be 8bit HDR as you can shoot it with some Sony cameres, it is possible to apply an ACES Transformation in Vegas to come up with HDR10/PQ. And there should be no issue with HDR-TVs (at least not if it can be switched to HDR manually, as it can be done with most Sony HDR-TVs).

But I am not so sure if the LG can be switched automatically to HDR10, and I am no so sure if Vegas add the required metadata really to allow the LG to swith to HDR10 if the footage is played back. I have a Sony TV and I know why I have purchased a Sony TV for HDR.

I do see that the source material is 10 bit, I missed that they posted that earlier... so try this. In Vegas, right click on the source file, go to properties, and in the color space set it to Rec2020 (1000 nits). See if that helps. If not, just try Rec2020. Sometimes I have to specify the color space to get it working right. Look at your scopes.. are they cropped at 100 nits? If so, something is throwing them off, like an incorrect color space setting in media or project settings or you have the color curves plugin in use at some point.

Again: the bug in the Color curves can be avoided very easy. Use not the Default ACES Settings but take the next one in the drop down menu.

Marco. wrote on 7/24/2019, 11:39 AM

I wasn't aware of that option to overcome the internal color curves issue. Though be careful with using different ACES modes. Standard ACES is linear with AP0 primaries while ACEScc is logarithmic with AP1 primaries. So the output may differ in luma and color. That said – not sure if ACEScc is not even the better/more correct choice.

Alldu wrote on 7/24/2019, 11:57 AM

Sorry for not replying guys - swamped with work! Thanks for all your thoughts and input. This file actually is taken from a commercial UHD, so there is no reason for me to believe it's not the real HDR10. Funny enough, I was able to open it in Adobe After Effect and render it out with the same quality HDR10... Not so sure why Vegas Pro HDR render is not working.

Musicvid wrote on 7/24/2019, 12:53 PM

Not so sure why Vegas Pro HDR render is not working.

And no one will know until you upload the file.

fr0sty wrote on 7/24/2019, 8:06 PM

My older model LG OLED can detect and play back Vegas Pro HDR renders just fine, both through Windows 10 and via its built in Youtube app.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/25/2019, 1:23 AM

I wasn't aware of that option to overcome the internal color curves issue. Though be careful with using different ACES modes. Standard ACES is linear with AP0 primaries while ACEScc is logarithmic with AP1 primaries. So the output may differ in luma and color. That said – not sure if ACEScc is not even the better/more correct choice.

Maybe the Output may differ - but it makes also no sense to run an ACES workflow for HDR where we apply a tool like the Color curves for grading, that result in clipping. I also reported that clipping issue Long time ago back to the Team - and it was their Suggestion to apply other ACES Settings. However, maybe not soo important in the near future any more, I think.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/25/2019, 1:40 AM

This file actually is taken from a commercial UHD, so there is no reason for me to believe it's not the real HDR10.

That makes it harder - since you do not know how this file was rendered really. Is it PQ, is it HLG, is it Dolby Vision. Also, I wonder what file Settings you allocate then in your ACES workflow. Vegas allows you to allocate for example slog from a Sony or v log from a Panasonic camera - both for the Gama and Gamut. Ok, but what profile would you allocate for your file even if it is PQ? I am not sure if Vegas allows here to allocate correct Settings in an ACES workflow at all.