59,940fps files in 29,70fps project - framerate, motion blur problem

grzegorz-w wrote on 12/16/2018, 3:04 AM

I shoot 59,940fps and 1/125s. I have Vegas 15 Pro project set on 29,70fps, but when I render it:

1. With resample modes: smart or force when camera moves quickly bluring is terrible and not acceptable

2. With turned of resampling it is almost ok, but when camera moves quickly video is jerky and not pleasant

I want to keep my project in 29,70fps because some of the clips I use as a slow motion.
How to fix it ? Please help me !

I uploaded test output videos to Dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/s/bjse0w3m6yf31xr/test_frame_rate.zip?dl=0

Comments

j-v wrote on 12/16/2018, 4:52 AM

I shoot 59,940fps and 1/125s.

Can you explain what that means
What I get of it is that there are shots with 59,940 frames per second.
And others with 125 fps or means 1/125s something else?

I would use normally the framerate of the footage in project- and rendersettings.
Only when your slomo's need more frames than available use only in those cases smart resample

I like to see the MediaInfo of your sourceclips

Last changed by j-v on 12/16/2018, 5:00 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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grzegorz-w wrote on 12/16/2018, 5:10 AM

Thank you for reply on. No. All shots are 59.940fps at shutter speed /125s (180 degree rule for cinematic, smooth blur).
As explained, I don't want to have output at 60fps. I shoot 60fps(59.940fps), because I wanted to make some clips
smoother in 30fps project (use slow motion for some shaky shoots etc). Please find in attachment screenshot of test clip in project media.

 

.

j-v wrote on 12/16/2018, 5:39 AM

Sorry I could not help you.

diverG wrote on 12/16/2018, 6:18 AM

What was the 'out of camera' footage like?   Maybe 'auto focus' or 'stabilisation' were enabled. Both best set to off  if panning. 

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klt wrote on 12/16/2018, 6:54 AM

Being in lack of dropbox account I cannot download your samples, but I think I understand you, because I do very similar, just with different framerates.

I shoot 50p, and my output is 25p. (This is a PAL land)

I generally disable resampling in project properties, and where explicitely need it, set the media properties to "force" resample. This trick may help you a bit?

Last changed by klt on 12/16/2018, 6:54 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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grzegorz-w wrote on 12/16/2018, 7:28 AM

Thank you for reply on. I simply don't like video quallity with resampling off, I need some natural blur for all frames.
Just tested Yadif plugin, it's not working for me and V15 crashes all the time.
 

j-v wrote on 12/16/2018, 7:29 AM

Being in lack of dropbox account I cannot download your samples, but I think I understand you, because I do very similar, just with different framerates.

I shoot 50p, and my output is 25p. (This is a PAL land)

I generally disable resampling in project properties, and where explicitely need it, set the media properties to "force" resample. This trick may help you a bit?

I don't think this will help, because you are also doing it the wrong way.
I'm also in PAL country and shooting in 50p I just do to overcome these problems. Only slideshows and stills make no difference the way you render them.
Here my short comparison of a short FHD 50p source rendered to 50 p, 25 p and 25 p with resample. I don't know if you can see the difference once the files are uploaded here and otherwise I will put them into my dropbox.

50p:

25p:

25p resample on:

 

When I looked at them here again it is not as clear as on the originals so I put them into my dropbox for download, here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bozf5ejyaqsvnf0/Renders.zip?dl=0

Last changed by j-v on 12/16/2018, 7:40 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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grzegorz-w wrote on 12/16/2018, 7:41 AM

In my scenario it is even worst, because I have a lot of camera movements.

1. Smart Resample On


2. Resample disabled

In 60fps it works very smoothly. I don't have problems with NTSC 60fps video framerate, although I am in PAL country.

 

j-v wrote on 12/16/2018, 8:04 AM

In 60fps it works very smoothly. I don't have problems with NTSC 60fps video framerate, although I am in PAL country.

For me 60fps are not making any difference compared to 50p.
Why should I do that?
But I don't see the problems with 50 (or 60) fps rendered to 50p and also slowing down by Ctrl-Drag.
The program doubles the amount of frames with or without resample.

This is the same test I did with now the file slowed down to half the velocity and thus twice the file lenght. Nothing wrong I thought. Rendered again to 50p Look

 

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Camera : Pan X900,GoProHero5
Desktop :AsRock Z270 Pro4, W10 , i7 7700K 4.2Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1050 Ti.
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grzegorz-w wrote on 12/16/2018, 8:17 AM

Your video doesn't look smooth.

j-v wrote on 12/16/2018, 8:34 AM

How could it by doubling the frames?
For real slow down I have to use in this case video with 100fps, that's why your way of working goes also wrong or did you slow down another way than slowing down a 59,940 fps source?

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Jan

Camera : Pan X900,GoProHero5
Desktop :AsRock Z270 Pro4, W10 , i7 7700K 4.2Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1050 Ti.
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Both Nvidia GPU's has driver version 417.35 of 12-12-2018
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matthias-krutz wrote on 12/16/2018, 10:23 AM

Take a look at ReSpeedr. This can create a fake slomo in good quality. Instead of doubling frames, missing intermediate frames are calculated. That gives the desired smooth flow without additional blur.

wwaag wrote on 12/16/2018, 12:26 PM

Happy Otter Scripts https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/happy-otter-scripts-for-vegas-pro--113922/ also has options for frame rate changes and slow motion Fx. I downloaded your test sample and applied a simple 2X slo-mo FX and change frame-rate to 29.97. This can be done within a single render. Here are the results.

Just a short note. The actual file looks better than the uploaded file. You can download the actual rendered file here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/a00fynaqrz16ssj/frameRateTest-01.mp4?dl=0

 

john_dennis wrote on 12/16/2018, 2:04 PM

"I uploaded test output videos to Dropbox"

Note:

None of those were source files from the camera? Working with camera source would expose what's possible by any means.

grzegorz-w wrote on 12/16/2018, 3:11 PM

Happy Otter Scripts https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/happy-otter-scripts-for-vegas-pro--113922/ also has options for frame rate changes and slow motion Fx. I downloaded your test sample and applied a simple 2X slo-mo FX and change frame-rate to 29.97. This can be done within a single render. Here are the results.

Just a short note. The actual file looks better than the uploaded file. You can download the actual rendered file here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/a00fynaqrz16ssj/frameRateTest-01.mp4?dl=0

 

There were no source files, so how could you test it ? Anyways thank you for the script and help, I will test it soon.
At the moment I simply gave up, and uploading flickering version to Youtube (disabled resampling).
I am really happy that there is a tool for fixing this issue. Hope it will work properly on my next video project !

Rainer wrote on 12/16/2018, 3:15 PM

gregorz, your preference for 180 degree motion blur relates to delivery rather than acquisition (and I hope it is a preference rather than blindly following a "rule"), iow to maintain that blur you have to shoot 360 degrees if you capture at twice your viewing frame rate (and disable resample in all cases).

wwaag wrote on 12/16/2018, 3:43 PM

"There were no source files, so how could you test it ?"

Agreed, that would have been preferable. However, you didn't upload the source and since the frame rates of source and rendered file were the same, I thought I'd just do a quick demo of the combined slo-mo and frame rate change that is possible within HOS. Results using source would most likely be better.

klt wrote on 12/17/2018, 12:33 AM

I don't think this will help, because you are also doing it the wrong way.

@j-v: What do you think it would be the right way?

I need to deliver 25p, shoot with Canon XA10 set to 25p 1/50 shutter, JVC GY-HM600 50p, shutter varies, 1/50 minimum, 1/100 if I can afford with light. Sometimes I need to finetune the shutter to an insane crazy value (say 1/50.78) to avoid flicker on a screen or projection behind a talent.

grzegorz-w wrote on 12/17/2018, 1:33 AM

But what about filmic blur when shooting 60fps for 30fps project ? I read somewhere that in this scenario I should
shoot 1/60s at 60fps (double output fps). Is it correct ?

j-v wrote on 12/17/2018, 3:55 AM

 

@j-v: What do you think it would be the right way?

How should I know?
The wrong way is shooting in double PAL or NTSC, than slowing down (removing frames in a fast pan shot) and rendering in normal PAL or NTSC while playing with resample settings.
The best solution is slow panning and for sure when using normal (low) framerates. When shooting fast pans you must try to use the highest possible framerate.
That will be all useless with too low shuttertimes compared to the framerate.
The lowest shuttertime possible for me is at least 2x framerate to overcome movement within 1 frame

met vriendelijke groet
Jan

Camera : Pan X900,GoProHero5
Desktop :AsRock Z270 Pro4, W10 , i7 7700K 4.2Ghz,16 DDR4 GB RAM, Gef. GTX 1050 Ti.
Laptop  :Asus ROG GL753VD, W10 home, version1803 build 17134.407, CPU i7 7700HQ, 16 GB RAM, GeF. GTX 1050 (2 GB) + Int. HD Graphics 630(2GB)
Both Nvidia GPU's has driver version 417.35 of 12-12-2018
TV      :LG 4K 55EG960V

Dutch video tutorials for beginners

grzegorz-w wrote on 12/17/2018, 7:42 AM

Happy Otter Scripts https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/happy-otter-scripts-for-vegas-pro--113922/ also has options for frame rate changes and slow motion Fx. I downloaded your test sample and applied a simple 2X slo-mo FX and change frame-rate to 29.97. This can be done within a single render. Here are the results.

Just a short note. The actual file looks better than the uploaded file. You can download the actual rendered file here. https://www.dropbox.com/s/a00fynaqrz16ssj/frameRateTest-01.mp4?dl=0

 

I signed-up for your software. An email lands in Spam inbox in GMail. Please fix it.

 

OldSmoke wrote on 12/17/2018, 9:39 AM

All shots are 59.940fps at shutter speed /125s (180 degree rule for cinematic, smooth blur).

To me, that sentence makes no sense; it's old thinking especially for higher frame rates. If you want "cinematic" motion blur when recording at 59.94fps, your shutter should be 1/60s or lower if required. At 1/125s shutter speed you are missing half of the information/blur within the frame because the frame is twice as long.

If you deliver in 25p than you have no choice but slowing down your panning, I mean really slow. Slow motion is a different story. If 59.94 is the highest your camera can record and you cant change shutter on the fly, then set the camera to 1/60s but still keep your panning smooth and slow. Converting 59.94fps to 25p means throwing away frames which causes stutter especially with a high shutter speed. To make it easer, use 50p and Vegas will discard every second frame to convert it to 25p. But, you can still have slow motion by setting the playback rate to 0.5.

Last changed by OldSmoke on 12/17/2018, 9:40 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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grzegorz-w wrote on 12/17/2018, 10:23 AM

Thank you OldSmoke, for confirming this what I was thinking of. I just missed cinematic blur when shooting 59.94 at 1/125s. Now I will set camera to 1/60s at 60fps for my 30fps or 25fps projects output. Isn't 30fps project for 60fps more suitable ? I think that that dividing by 2 is always easier for all algorithms.

OldSmoke wrote on 12/17/2018, 12:49 PM

Thank you OldSmoke, for confirming this what I was thinking of. I just missed cinematic blur when shooting 59.94 at 1/125s. Now I will set camera to 1/60s at 60fps for my 30fps or 25fps projects output. Isn't 30fps project for 60fps more suitable ? I think that that dividing by 2 is always easier for all algorithms.

@grzegorz-w What is the purpose that you deliver 25p or 30p? Is it to get slow motion because your camera can shoot at a max. 60p(59.94p)? If so, 30p(29.97) would be a better project setting and delivery format.

Last changed by OldSmoke on 12/17/2018, 1:21 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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