Auto Generated KFs for FXs? When?

Grazie wrote on 11/29/2012, 1:09 AM
OK, here we are, with our OFX Partners getting all rowdy with their slick new FXing. Marvellous! But I still can't grab-move those pert little Crosses on the Preview Screen and have a spinkling of automatically generated Keyframes follow my every movement. Duoh!?

Now, wouldn't it be real nice if that happened? Here's a thought: Maybe the Latch Tool that would clamp my movements ON-SCREEN and have them translated and held by KFs in the FX window? Or even my bending of the Curves in "Curves" control to be reflected in the same auto KF generation while the video plays out?!

Frustrating . . . . .

Seeing the Crosses is a real "come-on". Finessing this beckoning Siren by having my creative wishes held by Auto Generated KFs is just too logical to think it should be here already.

Remember the days of the Greyed-Out seductive Sync Cursor in the Text control? Yes?

Grazie

Comments

farss wrote on 11/29/2012, 1:43 AM
I would have thought having Paths more useful, they're certainly one of the things that gives me a whole lotta love for AE.

AE has another slick trick up it's sleeve that I only recently discovered. One can copy and paste a path onto a tranformation that wants keyframes and by some background magic all the required keyframes and interpolation is computed for you.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/29/2012, 4:26 AM
OK , Bob...

You like AE. I get it, I really do. I also get that having "another" package outside of VP is a fine thing. I get that too. Also, your thoughts regarding paths, sure. My point, which you've avoided to comment on, using what other options are out there, is that potentially we've got all these opportunities to make use of auto KFs and presently they aren't available. Added to which we have 3rd party partners showing us handles in the Preview Screen.

Grazie

farss wrote on 11/29/2012, 6:09 AM
The problem I see with automatically creating keyframes to define a track along which you want an object to move is the following:

1) How often should the keyframes be created.
2) Keyframes don't provide any visual cue as to how the object will move.
3) Excess keyframes could create a lot of CPU load.
4) How is keyframe interpolation going to be factored into this.

Path.
Remembering we used to have them in Vegas and there was much gnashing of teeth when they went.

1) It provides an immediate visual cue to the object's track.
2) It is easy to adjust the path using a mechanism Vegas already exposes the user to (Bezier Curves).


To some extent the problem 1) & 3) could be gotten around by using "keyframe smoothing" similar to how Vegas does volume envelope node smoothing however I'm far from certain we'd all be happy with the result, especially those of us who don't have a graphics tablet and fail at freehand drawing. For example; did the user mean to draw an arc or a parabola.

There's another issue. Neither is a perfect solution.
With a path you have only a beginning and an end. You can define how long a stroke (sorry that's an AE thing) will take to traverse the path but that's about it. In the real world objects rarely move along a path / trajectory at constant speed.

It's quite likely that's the reason SoFo went from paths to keyframes, a typical engineer's view that I'd go along with if it wasn't for the two creative grey cells in my brain. I'm certain you too have noticed how many people here have "issues" with keyframes and interpolation.

"My point, which you've avoided to comment on, using what other options are out there, is that potentially we've got all these opportunities to make use of auto KFs and presently they aren't available. Added to which we have 3rd party partners showing us handles in the Preview Screen."

No, I didn't avoid commenting on them at all. I said I thought paths would be a better solution. You should take that to mean, in my opinion a better solution for the creative mind for the reasons I've outlined above.

No, I don't think Adobe's solution is perfect although it is very clever and if SCS were to implement the same in Vegas I believe you'd be reasonably happy with the outcome. I say it isn't perfect in part because it is clever and "clever" is what engineers love and artists revolt at.

None of this takes away from what you're asking for, I really haven't played around much at all with OFX plugs, my comments are purely at the conceptual level based on trying to work with keyframed moving things in Vegas AND AE. It's a pain in both apps.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/29/2012, 6:48 AM
It's a pain in both apps.

Well, at least SCS should start finessing the features that are apparent and almost with us now. Paths Curves . . Bananas whatever. But test it amongst the Creative BETA Community would be good!?!

It's a total tease and should be worked through.

Grazie



Rory Cooper wrote on 11/29/2012, 6:59 AM
1. would like to be able to see motion paths on track level same color as track header color and to see all track motion paths in header colors in parent track.

2. I would like to be able to run in Flip-Flops.
farss wrote on 11/29/2012, 7:06 AM
"But test it amongst the Creative BETA Community would be good!?"

No. Step one, work with a selection of creative people directly so the functional specification gives them what they need. To and fro face to face communication is vital.

Then comes beta testing. This is where you test to check that the code does what is defined in the functional specification. If the functional spec is flawed it really is too late to fix it because a lot of the money is already spent. On large engineering projects a large percentage of the total cost goes into the functional specification.

Here the task itself is not easy to define, the best fit solution is non trivial to devise. To get the optimum outcome a lot of work is required in prototyping. Going on at least one feature added in V12, SCS are falling down in this area.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/29/2012, 8:20 AM
Hah! As I hadn't even made a "Step One" yet. So a big fat NO to your:

No. Step one, work with a selection of creative

On the basis you've said "No" to a suggestion I hadn't even made yet. Bob? What's your problem?

I said that it SHOULD be put to the BETA Creative Community, I am presuming you agree with that? If you DO then say so. I did NOT say in what or which order.

Please do not put down an idea I have put forward here, by saying that it is about the order in which it is pursued.

Grazie

farss wrote on 11/29/2012, 3:10 PM
"But test it amongst the Creative BETA Community would be good!?!"

1) What is "it" in that sentence?

I took it to mean the almost finished coded implementation of your idea.

2) Who is "the Creative BETA Community"?

I took it to mean the members of the Vegas Pro 12 Beta forum who are responsible for beta testing.

"On the basis you've said "No" to a suggestion I hadn't even made yet."

That makes no logical sense to me at all. You've posted something here which we are (attempting) to discuss, clearly you have already made a suggestion.

"It's a total tease and should be worked through."

What does that mean?
Maybe it's just a throw away line or maybe we should take it to have considerable import in the current context.
I don't know exactly what "it" is.
I don't know what "worked through" means exactly.
Or maybe I don't need to spend a lot of time trying to understand what you are trying to say but then again if I get it wrong......

"Bob? What's your problem?"

With all due respect I think it's you who have a problem.
Use more words, don't make assumptions about how others will read them.
Don't assume that others are replying to what you think you've said.
If the reply doesn't seem to fit, take a moment to consider the possibility that you have failed to clearly communicate what is in your head.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 11/29/2012, 5:23 PM
Fair enough.

1) The "it" would be some working model of the Auto KF generator for FX-ing.

Then my "It's a total tease and should be worked through.", is that at present I can see the Crosses on the Preview but they can't, and don't generate any Points when I move them? Maddening! I would like to be able to Grab a Cross, of the FX, as the Video plays, and see Auto KFs being generated, in a similar way I get Auto Generated Points on an Audio Envelope using the "Auto Settings Touch" feature when adjust the Volume or Pan Slider.

2) The BETA Community would be anybody wishing to take on the responsibility to feedback to SCS how this feature is working or could be improved, prior to it being released.

My suggestion, as in the title to this thread, was to invite SCS to finesse the option for Auto KF generation. How this development is processed; in what order I hadn't specified. You appeared to me to have dismissed my idea, on the basis I hadn't given an order of processing the development process. I had simply offered an idea and that invitation to SCS.

I do appreciate you taking time to understand what I'm saying - I thought what I said was dead simple!

Bottom line for me would be to have Auto Generated KFs that appeared when I move the FX Crosses across the face of the Preview Screen.

Grazie

farss wrote on 11/30/2012, 4:57 AM
"You appeared to me to have dismissed my idea, on the basis I hadn't given an order of processing the development process. I had simply offered an idea and that invitation to SCS."

I think I need to explain how I see such ideas, requests or suggestions such as this one in general terms.

What we are talking about here is adding a new option to an application. If we restrict the conversation to only that then I see only two possible valid votes:

YES: Someone likes the idea and wants to add their vote to making it happen.
ABSTAIN: Even if you think it the craziest, stupidest idea, there's no reason to vote NO, you should just plain ignore it, never use it or turn it on. As well there will also be those, possibly the majority, who have no interest at all and they too will abstain.

In this scenario it becomes a very limited conversation, perhaps there's even no real conversation possible.

To give an example, consider a group going off to breakfast in a hotel.
One says "I think I'm going to have the fried eggs, sausage and bacon, what do you guys think?"
Maybe one says "Count me in, make that two".

The rest of the group might be thinking "why does he want all that unhealthy food?" and then think "Maybe he's really hungry" so then they might think to say something like "If you're really hungry, a big bowl of cereal, lots of fruit and a big glass of juice could be better for you".

That's kind of where I've been at.

Then there's a problem though, they've made an assumption, in this case perhaps a good one.Or maybe the guy just really love the taste of that food and hates cereal and fruit or maybe this is his once a year chance to eat some "bad" food because his wife isn't around. Realistically the group needs to know more, it needs to know his reasons, his intent, when he says he wants a plate of almost pure cholesterol.

This is where we're stuck and have been stuck before.
Using Automation to write keyframes is only a means to an end, just as food can be nothing more than a way to stop hunger.
Now I've been assuming you have a hunger for something and automatic keframing will ease those hunger pangs. My bad is making assumptions, I certainly don't want you to starve but until the converation opens up, until we know what you hunger for, I have to make assumptions or there isn't much room for discussion.

Bob.