Best Lossless Video Format for Editing in Vegas Pro 16

aboammar wrote on 5/2/2019, 3:53 PM

Hi everyone,

An animation company created a video animation for me and they are supposed to send me the final version today. I want to further edit the animation in Vegas Pro 16, so what is the best video format that I should ask them for so I can re-edit the animation without any generation loss and also does provide smooth playback in Vegas Pro?

Appreciate any feedback

HP Z1 AIO Workstation G3

OS: Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Display: 23.6" UHD 4K

CPU: Xeon E3-1270 v5  quad-core @ 3.60GHz, 8MB cache, up to 4GHz with Intel Turbo Boost Technology

GPU: nVidia Quadro M2000M 4GB

RAM: 32GB DDR4 2133MHz ECC memory

System Drive: 1TB M.2 (2500MB/s)

Working Drive: 1TB M.2 (2500MB/s)

Storage Drive: 3GB SSD (500MB/s)

Video: Vegas Pro 16 Suite / DaVinci Resolve 16 Studio

Audio: PreSonus Studio One Pro 4

Graphics: CorelDraw Technical Suite 2018 / Xara Designer Pro X

Image Editing: Corel PhotoPaint 2018 / Corel PaintShop Pro X9 Ultimate / PHASEONE Capture One Pro 11

3D Graphics: Maxon Cinema 4D Studio 10

Website: www.innoviahouse.com

Vimeo: vimeo.com/innoviahouse

Comments

Musicvid wrote on 5/2/2019, 4:12 PM

re-edit the animation without any generation loss

Generation loss occurs when you render the video to an output format, so that part is up to you.

does provide smooth playback in Vegas Pro?

That again is dependent on your unique system and the OS your animation creator is using. UT (or Magic) RGB, or PNG sequence are worth testing. Animation (despite its name), Long-GOP, or 4:2:2 will not be as good with saturated primaries.

Eagle Six wrote on 5/2/2019, 4:13 PM

Your question is somewhat open-ended without know the specs of your system. If it were me I, considering I wanted smooth playback, and not knowing anything else about the project, I would request something like Magic YUV.

System Specs......
Corsair Obsidian Series 450D ATX Mid Tower
Asus X99-A II LGA 2011-v3, Intel X99 SATA 6 Gb/s USB 3.1/3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Core i7-6800K 15M Broadwell-E, 6 core 3.4 GHz LGA 2011-v3 (overclocked 20%)
64GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200
Corsair Hydro Series H110i GTX 280mm Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
MSI Radeon R9 390 DirectX 12 8GB Video Card
Corsair RMx Series RM750X 740W 80 Plus Gold power pack
Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 boot drive
Corsair Neutron XT 2.5 480GB SATA III SSD - video work drive
Western Digitial 1TB 7200 RPM SATA - video work drive
Western Digital Black 6TB 7200 RPM SATA 6Bb/s 128MB Cache 3.5 data drive

Bluray Disc burner drive
2x 1080p monitors
Microsoft Window 10 Pro
DaVinci Resolve Studio 16 pb2
SVP13, MVP15, MVP16, SMSP13, MVMS15, MVMSP15, MVMSP16

Former users wrote on 5/2/2019, 4:53 PM

These are some intermediates compared to each other for generations 1 and 3, using the Happy Otter Render quality metrics + ffmpeg ssim, psnr, results are similar. MagicYuv lossless thrown in.

 

Musicvid wrote on 5/2/2019, 5:15 PM

To put those excellent test numbers in perspective, my unofficial grading rubric puts the line between "optimal" and "visually lossless" right about SSIM 0.995. It's a very good number to shoot for. But I would go even tighter with animation source.

For intermediates, I avoid PSNR below 40dB completely. That's the shadow noise figure, much like audio SNR.

BruceUSA wrote on 5/2/2019, 5:17 PM

Magicyuv hand down . It is fast and reasonable file size.

aboammar wrote on 5/2/2019, 5:41 PM

Thanks guys for the feedback.

My full system information is listed in my signature. Just click on the + SIGNATURE and it will reveal the details.

I am not familiar with MagicYUV and truly never heard about this format! Also, I could not find it in the listed format when I import media in Vegas Pro! See screenshots below:

Is my Vegas Pro missing this format?

HP Z1 AIO Workstation G3

OS: Windows 10 Pro 64bit

Display: 23.6" UHD 4K

CPU: Xeon E3-1270 v5  quad-core @ 3.60GHz, 8MB cache, up to 4GHz with Intel Turbo Boost Technology

GPU: nVidia Quadro M2000M 4GB

RAM: 32GB DDR4 2133MHz ECC memory

System Drive: 1TB M.2 (2500MB/s)

Working Drive: 1TB M.2 (2500MB/s)

Storage Drive: 3GB SSD (500MB/s)

Video: Vegas Pro 16 Suite / DaVinci Resolve 16 Studio

Audio: PreSonus Studio One Pro 4

Graphics: CorelDraw Technical Suite 2018 / Xara Designer Pro X

Image Editing: Corel PhotoPaint 2018 / Corel PaintShop Pro X9 Ultimate / PHASEONE Capture One Pro 11

3D Graphics: Maxon Cinema 4D Studio 10

Website: www.innoviahouse.com

Vimeo: vimeo.com/innoviahouse

Eagle Six wrote on 5/2/2019, 5:58 PM

You need to download and install it. Do an internet search for 'Magic YUV codec' and it will pop right up. Never mind, here you go: https://www.magicyuv.com/

System Specs......
Corsair Obsidian Series 450D ATX Mid Tower
Asus X99-A II LGA 2011-v3, Intel X99 SATA 6 Gb/s USB 3.1/3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard
Intel Core i7-6800K 15M Broadwell-E, 6 core 3.4 GHz LGA 2011-v3 (overclocked 20%)
64GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200
Corsair Hydro Series H110i GTX 280mm Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
MSI Radeon R9 390 DirectX 12 8GB Video Card
Corsair RMx Series RM750X 740W 80 Plus Gold power pack
Samsung 970 EVO NVMe M.2 boot drive
Corsair Neutron XT 2.5 480GB SATA III SSD - video work drive
Western Digitial 1TB 7200 RPM SATA - video work drive
Western Digital Black 6TB 7200 RPM SATA 6Bb/s 128MB Cache 3.5 data drive

Bluray Disc burner drive
2x 1080p monitors
Microsoft Window 10 Pro
DaVinci Resolve Studio 16 pb2
SVP13, MVP15, MVP16, SMSP13, MVMS15, MVMSP15, MVMSP16

wwaag wrote on 5/2/2019, 6:00 PM

@aboammar

MagicYUV would also be my choice. Although there's a freeware version available, I would recommend getting the Ultimate version ($14) which supports higher bit depths. Since it's a 3rd party codec and not free, it's not included in Vegas. Here's the link. https://www.magicyuv.com/

Former users wrote on 5/2/2019, 6:05 PM

Hi @aboammar, I just purchased it recently, $14.00, there’s a free version also. https://www.magicyuv.com/

It'll land in vfw, Video For Windows, just select “video format” drop down in the vfw render template after you install the codec. I found that when attempting render to 10 bit I got an error, VP doesn’t support I think. @Musicvid, Nick hope and others here are far more knowledgable than I am about it.

 

Musicvid wrote on 5/2/2019, 6:12 PM

Unless you will have 10 bit source from your animation house, there would be no immediate need to purchase Magic YUV at present. The free version works great, as does UT Codec.

Again, it's wonderful to see fellow users contributing so much meaningful and thorough test data, including that for hardware intermediates.

 

eikira wrote on 5/2/2019, 6:12 PM

If you and that company do not want to pay anything, Lagarith does the job. https://lags.leetcode.net/codec.html
It plays smooth in Vegas and is surprising compressing on the filesize side.
If you have no concerns about storage space on your system and that company too and you want to spend a very reasonable small amount of money, the already mentioned MagicYUV does really a good very smooth playbackjob in Vegas https://www.magicyuv.com/

fifonik wrote on 5/2/2019, 7:01 PM

 

If you and that company do not want to pay anything, Lagarith does the job

Don't go this way! Very outdated and still have issues. MagicYUV or UT are way better.

The company do not need to buy MagicYUV encoder. They can simply export everything as PNG and then use FFMPEG to encode it to MagicYUV or UT Video. No encoders installation will be required for them required (they are build-in). FFMPED is also single file executable that does not require installation (download and unpack).

You will need to get and install MagicYUV or UT Video codec. I'd recommend you to get the payed version of MagicYUV.

Last changed by fifonik on 5/2/2019, 7:02 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Camcorder: Panasonic X920

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 3700X, RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4 3200, Graphics card: MSI RX470 4GB, SSD: Samsung 850 EVO SATA 250MB, HDDs: Seagate & Toshiba 2TB, OS: Windows 10 64-bit 1903

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17

eikira wrote on 5/2/2019, 7:11 PM
Don't go this way! Very outdated and still have issues. MagicYUV or UT are way better.

I said for a very good reason if you dont want to pay anything. Outdated... does not really matter if it works. What issues exactly are you refering to?

The company do not need to buy MagicYUV encoder. They can simply export everything as PNG and then use FFMPEG to encode it to MagicYUV or UT Video.

I found the performance of UT nothing to brag to much about it, at least not on my systems in the workflow. MagicYUV on the other hand is a overall very nice and smooth experience. I count Lagarith in the middle of those two.

Well, that is a workflow. Given it is a small workflow for people who know what you are saying, but it is a workflow and annoying thing for a company who hired people specific for doing stuff they do not really want to bother with. I include wrapping and packing sequences of pictures into a container with a non GUI tool.

Musicvid wrote on 5/2/2019, 7:27 PM

My tests indicate no difference between Magic and UT in RGB mode, either in size, quality, speed, or timeline performance. Lagarith, on the other hand, works fine in Vegas, but was excluded from testing due to a history of buggy performance in libavcodec. When last tested in 2011, Lagarith fared no better than HuffYUV..

2018

2011

 

fifonik wrote on 5/2/2019, 7:42 PM
Outdated... does not really matter if it works.

New codecs usually uses newer CPU's instructions so they are typically faster even if they use the same algorithms.

 

What issues exactly are you refering to?

I used to have issues with levels and while doing final render I got black frames in random positions.

These issues disappeared when I re-render intermediates with HuffYUV (nothing else was changed in system and project).

I read about issues others having with the codec.

 

I found the performance of UT nothing to brag to much about it, at least not on my systems in the workflow. MagicYUV on the other hand is a overall very nice and smooth experience. I count Lagarith in the middle of those two.

I have not tested performance UT vs Magix (ffmpeg in-build variants only) myself. I checked the size of renders only. However, I would noticed if UT was much slower. It was not.

 

Well, that is a workflow. Given it is a small workflow for people who know what you are saying, but it is a workflow and annoying thing for a company who hired people specific for doing stuff they do not really want to bother with.

 

I'd include simple cmd file + executable in archive so someone will only need to run the cmd.

It is usually easier that download codec, install it and then setup all these settings in their program to export.

Sure, it should be discussed with first.

Camcorder: Panasonic X920

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 3700X, RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4 3200, Graphics card: MSI RX470 4GB, SSD: Samsung 850 EVO SATA 250MB, HDDs: Seagate & Toshiba 2TB, OS: Windows 10 64-bit 1903

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17

fifonik wrote on 5/2/2019, 7:53 PM

My tests indicate no difference between Magic and UT in RGB mode, either in size, quality, speed, or timeline performance

Well, there ARE differences in file size and speed depend on options you use. File size differences are quite significant.

You can try different -pred options (the same option was available in GUI when I played with codecs in VDub. It is just easier to do comparison using CLI for me). I'm still talking about RGB and no quality loss.

Last changed by fifonik on 5/2/2019, 8:01 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

Camcorder: Panasonic X920

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 3700X, RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4 3200, Graphics card: MSI RX470 4GB, SSD: Samsung 850 EVO SATA 250MB, HDDs: Seagate & Toshiba 2TB, OS: Windows 10 64-bit 1903

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17

BruceUSA wrote on 5/2/2019, 8:57 PM

Lagarith is to slow. Stay away at all costs. There are many options now aday.

Musicvid wrote on 5/2/2019, 9:03 PM

Well, there ARE differences in file size and speed depend on options you use. 

Yes, there are.

Apologies if the differences at different settings are not clearly revealed in the chart you saw above. Predict Left will always be used as a constant, not a variable in my work and testing because it is presumed to produce larger files with slightly better accuracy. Last time I actually tested that was in preparing the 2011 tests, so maybe it's worth another look ;?)

That's about all I can contribute to the factual discussion guys; carry on.

eikira wrote on 5/2/2019, 9:27 PM

Unless you will have 10 bit source from your animation house, there would be no immediate need to purchase Magic YUV at present. The free version works great, as does UT Codec.

True. Not only Vegas does not seem to be able to do the 10 bit stuff. TMPEnc also prohibits me to encode it in 10bit =(.

fan-boy wrote on 5/2/2019, 9:33 PM

get source as .avi YUV 10 bit or Pro Res 422LT 10 bit .mov . Then later , after editing , assuming you want to Deliver the final video to yourself , render the final edit out to h.264 8 bit blu-ray compliant . or possibly 4k h.264 .

the above seems to be what I have learned from the other "in the know" Posters , here in Vegas Pro forum .

fifonik wrote on 5/2/2019, 10:40 PM
Predict Left will always be used as a constant, not a variable in my work and testing because it is presumed to produce larger files with slightly better accuracy.

If I remember correctly, the option is not about quality (that is always the same for RGB), but speed/size trade off. Left is the easiest for CPU (=fastest), but produces the largest file. MagicYUV's author recommends to use median.

Camcorder: Panasonic X920

Desktop: MB: MSI B450M MORTAR TITANIUM, CPU: AMD Ryzen 3700X, RAM: G'Skill 16 GB DDR4 3200, Graphics card: MSI RX470 4GB, SSD: Samsung 850 EVO SATA 250MB, HDDs: Seagate & Toshiba 2TB, OS: Windows 10 64-bit 1903

NLE: Vegas Pro [Edit] 11, 12, 13, 15, 17