Blah, Blah, Blah!

Kyoto wrote on 4/20/2005, 2:48 PM
Hey - I paid $3999.99 plus sales tax for my black face ADAT when it first came out. There were never any updates for that! It did what it did and that was that - until the heads got funky - then it didn't do anything! But, at the time I was very thankful to have it. Today I'm producing records using Vegas - I've been with it since V1. With all the upgrades purchased ( 2 - 6) I still spent under $1000.00 for the software. With every upgrade it's gotten better and better.

Poor little Sonic Foundry got bought up by big old Sony, just like little indie lables get bought up by the majors, little radio stations get bought up by the conglamorates, hey, even my favorite mom and pop pizza parlor in the French Quarter in New Orleans got bought up by Pizza Hut! That's just the way the world goes. I'm glad Vegas / Acid / SF etc didn't go totally under like some other software companies, Aardvark, etc. They are keepin' it going and improving on it, even if not at the rate some users expect. I'm sure Sony bought it as a good business move for themselves, or maybe just to keep a competitor from purchasing the company. Y'all can either switch to other software, or just use Vegas for the things it does best.

My point is - this constant forum whine-a-thon is gettin' kinda old. If y'all want to complain about things, there's a lot of more important issues in the world than worrying about the the metronome in Vegas.

Many of you are using Vegas because you don't have th 10 -15K it would cost to enter the Pro Tools world. Instead of spending your time complaining about Sony, you could just use that time and energy making music, being creative, and hopefully that will breed sucess, the byproduct of which is financial gain.. Then you can switch to some other platform to record music on. And after you make the switch, things still won't be perfect! The Beatles had a good quality 4 track and made Sgt. Pepper. I don't think George Martin and the Lads wasted a lot of time in the studio complaining that it wasn't a 24 track! We've all gotten our money's worth out of Vegas. If you don't think so, check out what the first Sony digital 24 track tape machine (which cost well over $100,000).is selling for on Ebay today! (It didn't even sound that good!)


PipelineAudio wrote on 4/20/2005, 3:17 PM
of course that four track had latency free input monitoring so lets not compare apples to oranges
James Young wrote on 4/20/2005, 3:17 PM
Oh no, not the 4-track beatles arguement (hey, did they REALY only use 4-tracks!? No!)

There is no place for this sort of talk. This forum has established itself as a place to come and whine and vent long long ago, so why are you arguing with it's purpose?? Most of us here are FINE with Vegas apart from a few, small, little things (OK, Pipeline-types want Direct Monitoring) It's easily dramatized into this whole "End-of-World" senario when really I think most of will agree that it isn't, it just looks that way. Sorta like your face, Kyoto. Yeah, you heard me!

And another thing, Some of us HAVE worked incredible amounts of hours on 10-15K protools systems, and still we want Vegas to improve. What does THAT tell you? Anything? No? Oh, wait, did I hear you wimper? No? What was that, are you having gas? No? Oh, OK, FINE! I WILL BEAT MYSELF INTO A BLOODY PULP NOW THANK YOU
drbam wrote on 4/20/2005, 3:41 PM
Interesting comments from you Kyoto. So obviously the auto compensation complaint you had and your buss panning issues have all cleared up with this great new version, right? And BTW, do you ever find occasion to use a click track or is that just not something worth being concerned about with the kind of music you're making?

fultro wrote on 4/20/2005, 4:26 PM
No, some people actually can make music without a click track - I do not necessarily place any value judgement one way or the other. But if you need a click track - record a metronome beat to a track first - the point being - referencing Kyoto's 4-track comment - is that basically every work environment has limitations - those limitations can either limit or inspire a creative sollution often leading to the unexpected, which I for one have always welcomed . The Beatles - having to put multiple instruments on one track at a time had to make creative committments up to 4 different times per song which allowed very little room for backing up later on or fixing it in the mix - at the time of the final production I know that some of them were unhappy with the fact that they could not change the balance on a number of things - I am sure that they didn't worry about it for too long - in the seventies I saw the exponential growth of tape tracks and channel counts - as well as - the growth of endless hours in the studio laboring over the kick drum sound even before the tune was written - so much pop music from the 70s in particular sounds constipated to me - did all those options really help the creative flow - I think not. Punk and HipHop withdrew from all that and on and on til we get to software with way too many options for most people
All I am saying is use what you got - now
drbam wrote on 4/20/2005, 5:15 PM
"All I am saying is use what you got - now"

Good advise and of course what other choice is there? But I guess the main point, which I didn't make in my reply to Kyoto, is that I prefer to get what I paid for. Maybe you and/or Kyoto don't really care about that kind of thing but its an issue with me. I don't like being exploited or ripped off (in this case the broken metronome). Additionally, I really don't need a lesson from you, Kyoto or anyone else regarding the history of the recording business. I've been working in studios since 1962 and had to do a lot of work in mono, 2 track and 3 track! That was then. . .


Rednroll wrote on 4/20/2005, 5:16 PM
Well Geez, that 4 track that the Beatles used, was probably the top of line at that time. Did they stick with that 4 track when technology advanced? NO!!! So you're basically telling us we should be fine and working with that old 4 track, when the rest of the world has moved up to a 24 track? I bet you're still using Dixie cups and a shoe string for a telephone also, and saying you don't need those cell phones. "I've been having conversations fine and dandy with these dixie cups, and they still do what I purchased them to do." Hey you drive your horse and carriage to work and when you come home sit back, relax and watch your black and white TV with the bunny ear attenas with tinfoil on it. Sorry, that's not the way I wish to be, and I don't need you to tell me I need to stop complaining. Yeah, and BTW, I too am a former ProTools user, infact I jumped from ProTools to Vegas, when it was a DAW.
Weevil wrote on 4/20/2005, 6:07 PM
I’ve got some Windows 3.11 floppies here somewhere if ya want ‘em Kyoto...
fultro wrote on 4/20/2005, 6:34 PM
"Good advise and of course what other choice is there? But I guess the main point, which I didn't make in my reply to Kyoto, is that I prefer to get what I paid for. Maybe you and/or Kyoto don't really care about that kind of thing but its an issue with me"
exactly how I feel - I saved all summer on a costruction job to buy a tascam 4-track and that machine worked as advertised - not a 1/2" deck but a decent easy to use 1/4" - worked endlessly for years. I am afraid software has dumbed us all down - shelling out hundreds/ thousands knowing full well that it will be months later before the things we bought it for are made to work right - if ever..

Excellent - not only did you completely miss my point - but you make the classic argument for conspicuous consumption
The Beatles would have made St. Peppers on a cassette deck, 8-tracks were actually available to people like them at the time - and if all you had was a dixie cup and string and your life was in peril you'd use them - besides it is a more reliable form of communication than cell phones anyway. And yes I still use a TV with rabbitt ears ( my choice to limit my already noisy environment) and will probably live to see the day when horse and buggy is all any of us will have to get out to buy whatever limited food resources are left after the madness of our oil driven culture finally collapses from its own sloth and over consumption
So you used ProTools the industry standard that the Beatles mostly likely would be using today and yet you choose to use Vegas - generally regarded as prosumer - so what?
I am not telling you or anyone to do anything - just passing ideas around - but I will say that if your priority is to have the latest or greatest all the time than you are missing the point of what these tools are really for
Rednroll wrote on 4/20/2005, 7:02 PM
I guess, you're missing the whole point of technology. Technology continues to advance, peoples needs will therefore change as how they wish to work because they desire those technoloical advancements. If the tool I'm using decides to not grow with that technological advancement, then so be it. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to cuss at it when I'm throwing it in the trash either, because I hoped I could continue to use it forever. This tool, has decided to evolve towards video editing technology advancements. Sorry, I don't have a desire to grow with that because my desire is to make music and not videos. There are other tools available that are evolving more in creating music, those are the tools I need to look at and not stick with something that's growing into something I have no need for.
fultro wrote on 4/20/2005, 7:39 PM
Actually I have been reading a lot of your posts today in these forums (esp Audio) and I do sympathize with a lot of what you say.
I started wout with Sonic Foundry with Sound Forge 4 and Acid 2 when I made the move to PC - I still had a Digidesign system on a Mac at the time. I was immediately astonished at how easy the stuff was to learn and how well it integrated with the IBM stlye keyboard commands and Word Processing style GUI workstyle. I was running a 350MHz P2 & 256MB ram and I never bogged Acid down - though I was using it more as a multitrack recorder/mixer than as a looping tool. I thought at the time that this had to replace ProTools. Not only was it lighter, and easier to use but it was easy to get creative on it - way easier. And I can't count the number of times I called tech support not with big problems but with general questions - and they answered the phone - and talked for a while - I learned a lot...Needless to say Acid for all its hipness in some ways is not the ideal multitracker - after getting Vegas 3 I always wanted the best of both those apps to function together. Alas , having read these forums a lot lately it seems clear it is never meant to be. I am not in a situation where I need to do complicated mixes with lots of sends and bussing - I am more on the video side now, keeping the audio pretty simple - so I'm ok where it is at now but when i have to get more serious I have to use Cubase SX , which I don't like all that much but it fulfills a basic need. Tried ProTools for Windows but in keeping with their highly refined rep as arrogant arhoolies it seems they are only paying lip service to capture the Windows crowd while still, after years at it, providing lousy drivers for their hardware - and not utilizing standard Windows protocols because WE ARE DIGIDESIGN ---oh well where was I?
I am afraid that Sony knows they can get away with this BS for a while because Sonic Foundry did such a good job at at developing loyal customers the old fashioned way - good product/ good service - and for the price and the )still) relative high standards they will keep a lot of us - but as you can tell the competition is breathing down their backs - I love it - threads discussing the merits of Sonar, Cakewalk and lamenting the loss of Aardvark..

Best of luck in your efforts here, my friend - I know it would make me a happier Sony customer if you succeed ...... in any of it...
jaydeeee wrote on 4/21/2005, 2:27 AM
>>but I will say that if your priority is to have the latest or greatest all the time than you are missing the point of what these tools are really for<<<


I understand that red and many want vegas to keep up with the jones's, but let me ask one question?
Where are all the users who use vegas with serious players?
Where are the situations which don't require a robust metronome, midi, triggers, etc. in your works?

That's really what we're talking about. A solid and successful DAW to me allows me to record trained musicians works with speed and ease (which vegas's UI excells in). As a trained musician, that is really what I'm looking for, and that is what the great music of the past is comprised of. Just tracking competent musicians in a flow a musician is comforable with (eg. recording musicians with feel, mastery of their inst/voice, sense of time, talent, voodoo, whatever.

This is not elitist spewing...this is getting to the heart and soul of music and capturing that. I open Vegas with the sole intent - get those talented mofo's recorded and mixed down with ease. Hell even Vegas 3 does this (in some ways it's a better version to use btw).

I think 90% of the bitching you would read here is coming from people who:
- post on this forum rather than seriously having to or working in this realm I mention.
- Are hobbyists taking advantage of technology - yet at the same time bypassing taking that time to learn the essence of a well rounded and working musician
- are some which really should be working in the realm of Ableton Live 4 and Acid - only because that's what their love for that genre is born of.

That said, I still am confused as to why Acid, Vegas, and Forge haven't been melded into one app. Having worked with many talented devs in many different audio scenarios, this doesn't seem like an unrealistic asking.
Then there's the other side of me saying - get to know all the tools out there (it only leads to more work).

But do you NEED cutting edge to produce great works? I say no.
Hell, load up Vegas 3, record the type of musicans I'm talking about (for free if you're green) and find out. You're talking/banterign about these little details..and missing out on the point of how this tool is useful.

Kyoto wrote on 4/21/2005, 4:09 AM
...and all I was saying was - what did everyone expect was going to happen when Sony bought Sonic Foundry? I didn't think they were going to call me up to see what new features and fixes I wanted. The good thing is that the software still exists, the bad thing is that it's just a small blip on the Sony radar screen. The program that had it's roots in audio, is now a hybrid video application. That started under Sonic Foundry's watch. That ain't gonna change! If it were just an audio program, who knows, then maybe Sony wouldn't even have been interested in buying the company in the first place. Sonic Foundry would have vaporised like Aardvark and others, and we'd all be using something else. Yeah, we all love the way it was under Sonic Foundry. But they made decisions that put the company on the brink of closing the doors. When It's SOFO stock first went public, it was around $10 share. When "multimedia" hype was huge, and Vegas' innovative audio AND video features that made it different from the other audio only programs, the stock shot up to over $100, then split. We all could have retired if we knew that and had some bucks to invest. But then when the market took a dive old SOFO was down to around a dollar per share. Workers got laid off, moral was disapearing. No advertising, no booths at trade shows, no visability, barely breathing. It needed more than someone's uncle investing 50 grand to keep it up. Someone with big bucks that could easily suffer the lose if all failed, was it's only hope. If it wasn't Sony, than who? Probably some other major player wanting to tie it in to something else they were already doing. (Like Apple and Logic.) I don't remember people like Bob Clearmountain and Todd Rundgren being interested to use their recording prowess and audio expertise to make Vegas what it could be, and make us forever happy. Hey that would be great, but money makes the business wourld go 'round - and our new "Daddy" became Sony. I'm sure it could have been worse.

This forum is a great place to get and give advice about software issues. It's helped me out a number of times. But a program that is also marketed to video editors and owned by a hugh company (that sells lots of camcorders) is never going to give you that up close and personal feel good audio vibe anymore. Everyone wants to beat up on Sony, but at least they're keepin' it going. It's got more than enough features to do great records or soundtracks on, and for the things it doesn't do so easily, there are always ways to figure out an alternative way to proceed with your ideas and your preferred methods of recording, whatever they may be. But, hey, this upgrade is like a big $99.99. In today's economy that's the price of a one new car tire. If you are a professional, earning your living recording / producing music and Vegas is the heart and soul of the DAW in your studio, that's not a lot to spend for even a couple of usefull new features. If you are an amateur (I don't mean anything derogatory by the use that word), or record music as your hobby, then you live in a great time. A few years ago you would not be able to afford any of the gear (software, powerful computers, big hard drives, quality mics, etc.) to do half of what you can do today down in your basement or extra bedroom. Vegas' list price is only $449.96. If you think it's the major rip-off in your lifetime, than you probably had a pretty good life so far!
James Young wrote on 4/21/2005, 8:34 AM
So true Kyoto, and I agree whole-heartingly with Jaydeee. Some folks are just much much more sensative to these issues then others, and have much much more passion for the technology - not to mean that they don't have any for the art. And alot of people are just poor and feel ripped off all the time.
drbam wrote on 4/21/2005, 9:25 AM
"And alot of people are just poor and feel ripped off all the time."

Perhaps you're right on some level, but financial status and feeling ripped off are two separate issues. I am far from being poor and I simply won't tolerate being ripped off. One doesn't have a damn thing to do with the other.


James Young wrote on 4/21/2005, 11:23 AM
should've wrote "and/or", eh? :)
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/21/2005, 11:46 AM
this conversation would make sense IF we werent still waiting for the basics, and especially IF routing hadnt been broken in v5