Is Development of Vegas Post planning to continue?

zaubermac wrote on 9/29/2022, 12:24 AM

Greetings!

I was just wondering if Vegas Post will continue to be developed with the sale of Hilfilm?

I see there was a point version bug fix released 8 months ago, but no mention of any new features or other plans beyond that?

It's a nice product, I was hoping it would continue to be an evolving work. I get that much of that is beyond Vegas' direct control, but I was hoping that maybe Vegas had been released code to continue development of its part of the puzzle. Slim chance, but I can dream.

Thanks for your time!

Comments

zaubermac wrote on 9/29/2022, 2:17 AM

Ok, thanks for the links. It's a little confusing, the release notes say that support for Vegas in Hitfilm is removed. However, the new features announced for Hitfilm are part of the update to Vegas Post. So my take away is that the synergy between the two as stand alone apps has been removed, but that Hitfilm is continuing to support its relationship with Vegas through Vegas Post. It's a good bundle of tools, I'm glad to see it still moving forward!

Thanks for the quick reply!

Seb-o wrote on 9/29/2022, 5:03 AM

Ok, thanks for the links. It's a little confusing, the release notes say that support for Vegas in Hitfilm is removed. However, the new features announced for Hitfilm are part of the update to Vegas Post. So my take away is that the synergy between the two as stand alone apps has been removed, but that Hitfilm is continuing to support its relationship with Vegas through Vegas Post. It's a good bundle of tools, I'm glad to see it still moving forward!

Thanks for the quick reply!

Let's HOPE so, but I'm not as optimistic here.

I said it before on another thread, which I deleted but now I see I was spot on. VEGAS will - as per its MO -License third party stuff - or push third party "teaser" programs, which are a marketing tool for those third parties, as a FUNDAMENTAL way of doing business, and as a way to attract more users, and UPSELL current ones, which almost inevitably blows up in their face, mostly with programs that time out, won't work in future release, are generally buggy, cause Vegas to become unstable.....You get the idea.This might have made sense at one time. I've always seen it as somewhat a boondoggle.

OTOH, MAGIX GmbH will JUST BUY what they want, as did Artlist with FXHome, (Hitfilm, which is VEGAS EFFECTS). (Oh, that is, unless they [Magix GmbH] did not outright purchase VEGAS, which I always hold out as a real possibility, IOW, they just part owner/distributer) I don't see how they, otherwise would ALLOW the inclusion of third party marketing within the scope of the VEGAS brand, since the MAGIX take-over, as that is just not part of their (Magix) MO, AFAICT.

SOS......(SAME OL' *****) THis will probably work for this last version (20) and one should think this is probably the end of the line, as far as Vegas supervised integration of the two programs currently called Vegas Post. I don't know how they (Artlist/FXHome) would stop other software "owners" (people who've purchased Hitifilm outright, perpetual license) from continuing to use it -- without upgrades/updates necessarily -- inside other programs- if they were sold for that purpose and for which that has always worked (as it does now).

....IOW, Hitfilm bought seperately has always worked within Vegas, way before "Post" and there was some mutual backscratching for years between the companies, but not a Vegas branded FX Home product. Vegas Post users might be reassured if they know that they can just purchase Hitfilm Pro and Imerge and so not lose some edits and such going forward. VEGAS NEEDS TO EXPLAIN HERE, (thank you very much) It doesn't surprise me that it hasn't really happened yet, sorry to say. This is really par for the course.

As per usual, if I am wrong, please, anyone at all, correct me if ANY of this is missing the mark.

Seb-o wrote on 9/29/2022, 5:37 AM

From an older post on FXHome Forums which they spoke of the earlier announcement, Dec. 2021, detailing the de-linking of the two programs. Some were posing the question: Why? Here is a very cogent and fleshed out response: (Edit: This is quoting Triem23, also a Vegas Forum participant , thank you - and also vkmast for referral/correction).

I don't have exact numbers, but, Vegas integration is only useful for the small subset of users who have both Vegas Pro and Hitfilm. I happen to be one of those users and here's some of my personal experience.

First - Vegas does not read Hitfilm's Pre-renders. Of course when loading a Hitfilm project and/or sending media to Hitfilm from Vegas Vegas has to build the cache files. For something minor - maybe a color correction - this might not take too long, but, at least for the types of complex animations I would do I'd have a lot of time waiting for Vegas to cache. And Vegas was locked during the cache.

My workflow just became rendering from Hitfilm and actually being able to edit other sections in Vegas in the background at the same time rather than being unable to edit in Vegas while the cache built. I used to run timing tests of integration vs just rendering from Hitfilm and moving the media to Vegas. Rendering from Hitfilm and loading the media was faster every time. There's less value in the integration than one would think.

Every year changes in both Vegas and Hitfilm require the pipeline to be rebuilt - surely you're both used to the new version of Vegas releasing and waiting for the next Hitfilm update to re-enable integration?

FXhome also - you may recall - did user surveys over the summer. I think we can assume FXhome discovered the percentage of users using both was really small and determined dev time was better spent on features and improvements that would benefit more users.

Finally from a business standpoint it helps delineate Hitfilm from Vegas POST. As assen pointed out, Vegas POST is an option, and that also ties users serial codes to the same account through a single vendor (in this case Magix/Vegas handling the licenses) instead of through two sites/vendors. As well as marrying the update cycle, where the entire Vegas POST updates through the same installer rather than staggering different Installers for Vegas, Hitfilm and Imerge.

I have been told by the devs the Vegas POST integration was faster than the Hitfilm integration. They ARE different pipes - Hitfilm projects read the EDITOR Timeline to Vegas as a media clip while Vegas EFFECTS reads a designated Comp Shot. Besides the product delineation, it still just removes a lot of dev-hours that can be used for other features.

As far as "losing users," is concerned, yes, a small portion will be annoyed, but, it's not like you can shift to Ae or Resolve and get Vegas integration. You still have Vegas Post as an option, you still have rendering from Hitfilm as an option. This isn't a big deal.

This also ties into the AE plug ins. Here, the situation is similar. Again, I don't have exact numbers, but I know over 90% of Hitfilm users are on Express and never buy add ons, beyond, maybe, their initial pay what you will. Pro users are under 5% of the user base, and not every Pro user installs AE plug ins.

Another thing to take into account with both Vegas integration and Ae plug ins is BOTH TEAMS have to code. With Vegas integration you both know you have to install Vegas FIRST, because it's code in the Vegas installer that sets up the pipeline - installing Hitfilm first means you don't even get the option of setting up integration. The Madison team for Vegas has to re-code every year as well - both for the Hitfilm and Vegas POST pipes (remember they're different pipes). Same with the Ae plug ins. Every time there's a major update to those plug ins (to account for changes to Ae) both the Ae coders and the FXhome coders have to re-write. Again, we can assume from FXhome's survey data they've largely determined the resources used to maintain those functions aren't worth the amount of use they get. There are a certain amount of user complaints about "this thing in this AE plug in isn't working right..." Probably most of those require recoding at the plug in end since the plug in was developed for a different core engine. To be very blunt, it's not worth the time for Video Copilot to deal with recoding for 10-to-50 thousand Hitfilm Pro users using the plug in vs the millions of Ae users. It's not worth FXhome time for those thousands of Pro users vs features that improve the software for the other 6 million+ users.

Feature deprecation isn't uncommon. If you look at the last few versions of Vegas you'll find in Vegas Options and Settings an entire submenu of deprecated features, and, by Vegas 19 some of those features that could be re-enabled in, say, Vegas 16 are completely gone. There's a bunch of stuff that's been removed from Ae over the years. Even other software (I have On1 Photo RAW and, two versions ago they completely removed a pretty sweet procedural Lens Flare effect with a much inferior Lens Flare based on photo textures. It's terrible, and now anything I want to add a flare to has to be exported from Photo Raw to Hitfilm) removes features regularly. Plus, good luck opening in Vegas any project that dates back before version 14... Any pre-14 projects opened in Vegas now break because Vegas 14 changed all the calls for handling FX filters.

Anyways, FXhome doesn't "want to lose users," but it's more or less a time spent vs value added equation.

Back to Ae plug ins. Only a few worked in Hitfilm, including Saber (technically redundant since Hitfilm has Lightsword and Neon Path), Element 3D (but Hitfilm loads 3D models), the VCP lens Flare plug in (HF just added a new Custom Lens Flare)... Orb is pretty cool, but adding a parallax effect after a Sphere effect can height map, so Orb doesn't actually do anything you can't recreate in Hitfilm. It's entirely possible FXhome will enhance the existing filters and functions in Hitfilm (the main advantage of Element 3D is its awesome materials browser, but other effects in Hitfilm are starting to add browser panels - Custom Flares for one), which would benefit a higher percentage of users than those using plug ins.

Anyways, when I first saw those functions were to be removed, I kind of thought, "That's not good," but the more thought I put into it the more I'm convinced it's not a big deal.

vkmast wrote on 9/29/2022, 6:43 AM

To give credit where credit is due, here is the link to the original post (quoted by "seb-o" above) from user Triem23 on the user forums of the FXhome Community:

https://community.fxhome.com/discussion/57867/hitfilm-and-vegas-pro

("Triem23" is also registered at this forum.)

MikeS wrote on 9/29/2022, 7:56 AM

>Hitfilm, which is VEGAS EFFECTS

People keep saying this - but it isn't completely accurate. Vegas Effects is the compositing component of Hitfilm (and is missing certain features such as Mocha Hitfilm, and the Foundry 3d camera tracker)

Vegas Post 19 Build 458 
Boris FX Continuum 2022 Build 15.0.1.676 
Boris FX Mocha Pro Plug-in 2022 v9.0.2 Build 197
Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRIME Z890-P motherboard
Intel Core i7-97000K @ 3.6GHz
RAM 32GB (2x 16GB) 2666MHz DDR4
GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER

Seb-o wrote on 9/29/2022, 1:02 PM

>Hitfilm, which is VEGAS EFFECTS

People keep saying this - but it isn't completely accurate. Vegas Effects is the compositing component of Hitfilm (and is missing certain features such as Mocha Hitfilm, and the Foundry 3d camera tracker)

Correct, missing some third party (fourth party?) components -- which Hitfilm themselves would almost certainly be licensing from e.g.: Mocha, et al. As Triem23 pointed out, the pipeline for Vegas Post is better integrated, (vs.Vegas to HF) not sure how much practical difference that would make.

You get the same sort of round trip with your "preferred audio editor" - and that goes back probably to the earliest versions of Vegas, I've been, from early on, (from at least Vegas 4) impressed with that fairly seemless integration. Premier does the same with AE, Resolve with Fusion.

I'm still lacking a bit of clarity of what this actually looks like moving forward. I hope Vegas CS will provide some of that clarity.

fr0sty wrote on 9/29/2022, 4:27 PM

This is just my speculation, I have been given no behind the scenes info that can validate anything else I am about to say here...

VEGAS support being removed from hitfilm was probably to direct more VEGAS users to buy VEGAS Effects, as Hitfilm was kinda competing with VEGAS Effects (itself) by having the round-trip capability baked into HItfilm itself, negating the use of VEGAS Effects as a VEGAS Pro companion app... My hope is, this will mean that VEGAS Effects and HItfilm may be able to be sold with feature parity now... whereas in the past there were some features in Hitfilm that were not in VE.

I have no idea how true that is or isn't, but that's my guess.

Edit: Read the above linked thread, looks like others agree there...

I have not heard anything that would indicate that the relationship between FXHome and VEGAS Pro is set to change. New versions are still being released, so that's what we have to go by... everything remains the same, but Hitfilm no longer round-trips with VEGAS Pro, VE still does.

Last changed by fr0sty on 9/29/2022, 4:35 PM, changed a total of 2 times.

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zaubermac wrote on 9/29/2022, 4:37 PM

Wow, thanks! Thanks for the insights, much appreciated. Also, I'm not surprised to find @Triem23 as a resource in this. He's on every forum I've used and always a great resource.

I used early Vegas as well and my recollection was it started more as an audio editor, video evolving in the mix. Kinda of like Nuendo if it transitioned from audio for video to video, with audio. I've always loved that it opens nearly any file or codec I ended up with. Try that with FCP, especially back in the day.

I too would love to hear from CS about the issue; I wouldn't be surprised if they're keeping that info in house though.

We'll see. But thanks for the info about the version 4 release. At least at this point, we're still moving forward.

Wiew wrote on 9/29/2022, 4:43 PM

Don't get me wrong , I love Vegas but ,

I am using Vegas and Hitfilm for quite a while now 
That's Vegas 19 and the version of Hitfilm Pro before the buyout

Because that the connection between Hitfilm and Vegas is gone, I'm thinking of upgrading to Vegas post 20
Resolve is not an option, I am not a lover of nodes
Premiere + After effects is quite expensive
Vegas Post...but Vegas doesn't have Mocha HitFilm and Sonic Foundry 3D Tracker.

And !!!!

Actually nothing much changes in Hitfilm ,

So ,upgrade Vegas edit 20 =119 
If I upgrade my Vegas Edit to 20 and I Upgrade to the new Hitfilm for 1 year = 119 + 145,20 = 264,2 
Vegas post upgrade = 299 (but no Mocha HitFilm and Sonic Foundry 3D Tracker)
Vegas post 365 = 359,88
So if I stick with hitfilm I get more for less, auwch

zaubermac wrote on 9/29/2022, 4:52 PM

Don't get me wrong , I love Vegas but ,

I am using Vegas and Hitfilm for quite a while now 
That's Vegas 19 and the version of Hitfilm Pro before the buyout

Because that the connection between Hitfilm and Vegas is gone, I'm thinking of upgrading to Vegas post 20
Resolve is not an option, I am not a lover of nodes
Premiere + After effects is quite expensive
Vegas Post...but Vegas doesn't have Mocha HitFilm and Sonic Foundry 3D Tracker.

And !!!!

Actually nothing much changes in Hitfilm ,

So ,upgrade Vegas edit 20 =119 
If I upgrade my Vegas Edit to 20 and I Upgrade to the new Hitfilm for 1 year = 119 + 145,20 = 264,2 
Vegas post upgrade = 299 (but no Mocha HitFilm and Sonic Foundry 3D Tracker)
Vegas post 365 = 359,88
So if I stick with hitfilm I get more for less, auwch

I think if you go this route, the two don't link anymore though? It might be cheaper, but is it viable for your workflow?

Wiew wrote on 9/29/2022, 5:00 PM

It is not about the few euro's or dollars it is about what isn't there ... Mocha HitFilm and Sonic Foundry 3D Tracker

we are paying more for less ,and if you want to make stand out composite shots , you want it all, at least I do.

The integration yeah , but ... does one outweigh the other , questions ...questions ...questions ...

Last changed by Wiew on 9/29/2022, 5:01 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Reyfox wrote on 9/29/2022, 5:11 PM

...or you can stay with VP19 and HFP 2021.3 where you can sort of have it "integrated".

HFP subscription is $120 per year on sale, perpetual upgrade. $280, new $380. Vegas Edit upgrade $119 perpetual, new $250, and $155 subscription.

Vegas Post upgrade is $299 at the moment perpetual, new $600, while subscription is $360.

I would think subscription would be less expensive than perpetual to get someone to go that route. At the moment with Vegas, subscription is more per year. I guess it's the additional storage and other web based features that the price is where it is.

 

fr0sty wrote on 9/30/2022, 2:44 AM

Keep in mind, they are bundling a lot of services with these subs, so you're not just getting the license. They gotta pay for that cloud storage, the clip library, etc.

I also think that they should make VEGAS Effects and Hitfilm have feature parity, but it could be that legally they cannot do this until an agreement is also made with Mocha and Sonic Foundry... those contracts can complicate things. Just because they made a deal with Hitfilm doesn't mean they are also going to be willing to make the same deal with everyone HItfilm partners with.

You can still add Mocha (the full version) to VEGAS, though it costs a lot more, despite having more features.

As for the 3D camera tracker... there's some interesting talk of people using Blender's camera tracker, then exporting that data into VEGAS Effects. Read here: https://community.fxhome.com/discussion/54847/blender-tracker-to-vegas-effects-hitfilm-pro-15

That could potentially give a free camera tracker option for VE.

 

Last changed by fr0sty on 9/30/2022, 2:45 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

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Reyfox wrote on 9/30/2022, 3:59 AM

I'm sure that pricing and deciding what to include can be a tough decision. Some would like an "ala carte" while others would want "all inclusive". It's a tough juggling act for sure.

As for the link to FXHome... there has been no activity in a while. The person doing the programming had several illness bouts do to brain trauma suffered as a child. There is a fee (nominal) but it can not be purchased at this time.

I do think there might be licensing issues for Mocha and Foundry. Hopefully in the future, they can be resolved.

MikeS wrote on 9/30/2022, 7:08 AM

> there's some interesting talk of people using Blender's camera tracker, then exporting that data into VEGAS Effects

Works fine. Been doing it on and off for over a year after modifying a version of the python script mentioned in your link. My modification pretty much just changes the exported filename extension to .vegfxcs from .hfcs, so in theory you could live with the original script, use it to export to .hfcs, and then rename to .vegfxcs (not .vegfxp as suggested in the thread you linked to) - but it is nice to see Vegas Effects as an option in the Export menu in Blender :-)

Last changed by MikeS on 9/30/2022, 7:12 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Vegas Post 19 Build 458 
Boris FX Continuum 2022 Build 15.0.1.676 
Boris FX Mocha Pro Plug-in 2022 v9.0.2 Build 197
Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRIME Z890-P motherboard
Intel Core i7-97000K @ 3.6GHz
RAM 32GB (2x 16GB) 2666MHz DDR4
GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER

fr0sty wrote on 9/30/2022, 11:32 AM

and nice to see a camera tracker in a fully functional 3D app working with VEGAS... that opens more possibilities than having it in VE alone.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Wiew wrote on 9/30/2022, 2:04 PM

@MikeS , I never used Blender , is it like working with the 3D camera in Htifilm ???