Max Number of Clips/Segments in Dual Layer Project

Steve Mason wrote on 5/17/2013, 1:23 AM

I'm in the final phase of completing a rather complex DVD in DVDA 5.2. This will be an exercise program (accompanying a fitness device I've developed) which I've divided into numerous segments (one per exercise - several include multiple variations).

I've made locating each of the 56 exercises exceedingly simple (for the end-user) by including multiple categorized menus and titled, video thumbnail buttons (for visual reference). This way the end-user can instantly review any exercise(s) they desire without the arduous task of skimming back and fourth through a lengthy, linear, single video (as I sorely remember from old VHS instructionals).

I've also included (3) five minute workout routines and (2) five minute soundtracks with timers (for user customized routines implementing the included exercises). And finally, I've decided to add one 8-10 second loop for each exercise so the viewer can set their player to repeat and practice the exercise moves without the need to fiddle with remotes, etc.

In total, I estimate nearly 100 segments will be included on this disc - all of which will be linked to various categorized menus. I am going to have a DVD-9 (dual-layer) disc mastered/replicated and I will have more than enough data space (I've done all of the math and have rendered most of the clips - they will fit just fine).

As re-writable, dual-layer DVDs don't exist, I've been testing my menus in segments and I've not yet burned a full dual-layer disc to include all of the clips. I will pick up a sleeve of DL-DVDs next week. For the time being, I still have to tighten up a few clips, etc.

My question is twofold:

(1) Will DVDA 5.2 have issues with such a large number of individual clips on a single DL disc or will I be OK?

(2) Is there a method of organizing the approx. 100 media clips into folders (much as the menus) on the DVD rather than the current litany of floating clip files stacked up in the DVD hierarchy?

Thanks in advance!!
Steve M.


musicvid10 wrote on 5/18/2013, 6:28 PM
I don't know what you mean by Clips and Segments? Those aren't DVD terms.
You can only put 99 Titles on a DVD. A Title is a video file.
You should be able to have almost unlimited Chapters (999 iirc)?
One Title with many Chapters is the most efficient workflow, not many Titles.

Be sure and get some proof discs from the replication house to pass on to friends, before you place a large order.
Steve Mason wrote on 5/19/2013, 11:58 AM
I'm supremely confident you knew what I meant by segments/clips - video is video, be it destined for DVD or otherwise, but I digress.

As this is only the 2nd "complex" DVD project I've authored (the last one in 2003 in DVDA 2.0), I'm a bit behind the times with designating chapters within long clips...I...I mean "titles." ;-)

Back in 2003 I queried this forum (it may have been Sonic Foundry back then) about chapter points and one of the members suggested that I skip "the whole chapter marker thing" and "simply import the media clips" I wanted linked to my menu buttons. Perhaps DVDA's chapter functionality was not up to snuff back then or I simply received bad advice. As such, I thought that was the way to go with my current project - whoops-a-daisy.

Based on your reply, I've gleaned that I should compile multiple "titles" aka brief video segments into lengthier "titles" aka "longer video segments/clips" and assign chapter points to the respective menu buttons rather than linking directly to individual "titles."

I will simply compile and render longer titles comprised of all of the individual "video segments" for each menu (9 in total), thus reducing my original estimated 90+ titles to less than a dozen. I'll simply import the .veg files into 9 or so different timelines and render them, thusly streamlining the DVD workflow as it were.

Did I interpret your advice correctly or am I in for another DVD terminology lambasting? ;-)
Jack S wrote on 5/19/2013, 5:05 PM
Steve, if I can just interject here. Be careful how you react to innocuous comments in replies you receive to your cries for help. There are many knowledgeable, dedicated contributors to these forums and being 'cute' with them when they've took the trouble to answer your query(s) may alienate them.
I've gained much knowledge from these contributors and you will too, if you read your replies carefully before you post them.
As to your query, consider this. There is a much bigger delay when choosing a title with the DVD remote than choosing a chapter.

My system
Dell XPS 8700 (I know, it's a little outdated)
Windows 10 Home (x64)
3.1 GHz Intel Core i5-4440
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti display adapter
System drive Samsung SSD 850 EVO 250GB

SONY Handycam HDR-XR550VE

musicvid10 wrote on 5/19/2013, 9:24 PM

No sorry, my crystal ball is at the cleaners. So please enlighten -- which term are you consistently using in place of "Title," and which one in place of "Chapter"?
In the context of DVD production (and Literature), the terms are not interchangeable, and introducing multiple Titles can be very problematic with different players.
Here's a long thread that ran parallel to yours, and is now solved.

My addled brain couldn't make even a bit of sense from your narrative.


That is, if it finds the chosen title at all . . .

Steve Mason wrote on 5/20/2013, 12:50 AM
"No sorry, my crystal ball is at the cleaners. So please enlighten -- which term are you consistently using in place of "Title," and which one in place of "Chapter"? "

(as originally defined)

As for "chapter" (as I've already explained) I'll render out longer "titles" comprised of compilations of the shorter "titles" and insert "chapter" points to link to the menu buttons.

"My addled brain couldn't make even a bit of sense from your narrative."
Funny you should say that - I share the identical issue with most of your replies - perhaps our communication styles are somehow incompatible.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/20/2013, 7:32 AM
Or perhaps there is wisdom in using a common language when communicating over the internet.
That's an extremely complex and ambitious workflow you've taken on. Best of luck with the outcome.
Steven Myers wrote on 5/20/2013, 8:37 AM
Two guys go into a restaurant. One orders pancakes, which are served. The other orders gravel, then is baffled when the server does not bring scrambled eggs.
videoITguy wrote on 5/21/2013, 7:23 PM
Language 101 - Dvd Specs Please:

1) Title - is a collection of media assets that can be authored to a DVD. A DVD can consist of many titles. However authoring systems design preclude how this may be accomplished. SCS DVDApro - uses an automatic single title design. You cannot design multi-titles with DVDApro. You can with DVDLabPro.

2) Media assets imported into a design can consist, of video, audio, and still-image photo/graphics. In SCS DVDAPro - assets can be lined up in a number of ways thru menu links, page sets, etc.

3) Chapter or scene insertion points can be created in a given audio or video asset. Hence a long video asset of say 1 hour run time could have many chapters.

4) IN DVD Specs - there are limits to the number of chapter links per menu and per title. There are also ultimate limits imposed by the combinations of links and number of menus. Page insertions bring their own challenges to what may appear in one given title.

5) Ultimately the length of runtime of single layer or dual layer DVD is upto the author selecting a bit rate that will fill the available volume of space. Keep in mind menus are actually running videos as assets and take their own proportion of the volume space as does the inclusion of any audio or multiple audio track.
Steve Mason wrote on 5/22/2013, 3:52 AM
Thank you for the primer videoITguy. If I'm properly understanding the tenets of your DVD definitions (expressly spec. #1) - DVDA 5.2 Pro will only allow a single TITLE design? That stated, the approximately 100 video assets (specifically mpeg-2 files linked to correlating play buttons) I originally imported into my project were NOT handled as separate TITLES by DVDA, but rather separate ASSETS?

If I am not misunderstanding these specs (I could well be), would my original design (100 video assets of varying length, linked to 100 corresponding play buttons on multiple menus) present a problem within DVDA? While organization of the floating video assets within the project was a tad unruly (I wish DVDA offered an asset folders option...or does it?), I didn't find the workflow particularly daunting. Essentially I would import an asset and link it to a play button - done; my primary and only concern was that DVDA might have had difficulty processing said design once completed (still a few video assets to complete).

After reworking and applying what I believe MV10 was getting at: combining shorter individual assets to create vastly fewer, however lengthier complied assets into which chapter points would be inserted, rather than linked to directly - I've found the workflow to be surprisingly more involved and complicated.

Back to my original query in this string: all said, before I go any further, is/are there any considerable disadvantage(s) to the 100 asset/100 direct links design or should I continue compiling smaller assets into lengthier assets, reducing quantity and using chapter points instead of direct links? As well, is there any documentation as to asset/link/chapter point limitations? I'd hate to waste any additional time going in the wrong direction with this involved design.

I should add that I render my MPEG2 files with the audio included, not separately - does that make the MPEG2 w/ audio a TITLE or does it remain an ASSET?

Steve M.
videoITguy wrote on 5/22/2013, 9:24 AM
Steve, most of all of your concerns have been addressed in this thread (and you may search other threads in this forum for terms like "media assets", " chapters", etc.).
DVD specs can be googled for the orginal document if you wish.

Don't concern yourself with "Title" because in DVDAPro you can not control it or even visualize it.

Menu links and number of menus is your concern.

Keep in mind that burned discs can have a very delayed PLAY response time as you make choices for complex selects in the design.

Always import video and audio streams separately. Go back to Vegas to do this properly in the render step.
Steve Mason wrote on 5/22/2013, 9:42 AM
"Steve, most of all of your concerns have been addressed in this thread (and you may search other threads in this forum for terms like "media assets", " chapters", etc.).
DVD specs can be googled for the orginal document if you wish."

Between gravel and pancakes and the much belabored title debate - I'm at a loss. Can't we go the 2-cent route wherein you hit me square in the chops with a straight answer?

All I'd like to know is: is my original 100 asset model a recipe for disaster (seems to work on my equipment thus far) or should I just go the longer/fewer asset/chapter marker route?

That's it.

PS - I already know of and adhere to the 18 link per menu limit. I will have 20-25 menus pages max.

musicvid10 wrote on 5/22/2013, 11:49 AM
" One Title with many Chapters is the most efficient workflow,"
Steve Mason wrote on 5/22/2013, 12:40 PM
Gotcha MV10 - thanks.
TOG62 wrote on 5/22/2013, 1:27 PM
Just to confuse matters, the DVDA 5.2 manual, p53, states:

"Choose a setting from the Copy media drop-down list if you want to copy your project's assets to the same folder as your project file: ..."

p 52, refers to titles, as follows:

"Media such as videos, music/video compilations, and picture compilations are called titles. When you add a title to your project, an object is automatically created on your menu."

On p115 "Each set of subtitles is added as a separate track in the timeline. You can add up to 32 subtitle tracks for each title (16 tracks for widescreen assets)."

With a low level of confidence I interpret this as meaning that, at least in Vegas, the items you import are called assets and the entities they create are called titles. In the case of compilations there can be several assets per title.

The following, from p 81, might also be of peripheral interest:

"In a video compilation, you can create a series of videos that play sequentially. This sort of video compilation behaves much like a playlist, but will be written to disc as a single video title set. If you have a project with many short videos, this loophole in the 99-title-set limitation imposed by the DVD specification can save you from rendering and combining media."
videoITguy wrote on 5/22/2013, 2:11 PM
and so as TOG62 point out....the SCS documentation is woefully inadequate and at times totally mis-leading.

The DVD spec "TITLE" meaning is never mentioned in the docs and when they define 'title' - that means something else entirely different. Terrible form of documentation and explanatory writing.

If you want the help file to look like the DVD specs - download the DVDLABPro help file from MediaChance. That help file follows the form much more correctly.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/22/2013, 2:50 PM
You'll get there Steve, sorry it had to be such a grueling experience. You should have seen me trying to get through my first multicamera editing project!
farss wrote on 5/22/2013, 3:55 PM
1) I've only done this with a single layer DVD with around 60 "titles". DL does pose an issue with the layer break however given the nature of your DVD that shouldn't be that much of a problem.

2) No and I agree that makes the process a pain however I stuck to a rigid naming convention for all the clips in order to preserve my sanity.

The DVD I authored contained a selection of over 20 different games for children.
For each game there was a selection of:
A video of actual game play.
Rules of the game as pages of text
List of equipment need
Teaching aids

All the above was also broken down in beginner, intermediate and advanced.

There was also a "Play All" button which played out all the games from beginner to advanced. All this is controlled by the End Action. The same clip of course ends up appearing multiple times in DVDA's list of clips as each instance has different end actions. DVDA is smart enough though to include only one copy of each clip on the DVD.

Steve Mason wrote on 5/22/2013, 5:32 PM

Cheers my friend - I only wish this was the most challenging part of this project; after the DVD is off to replication the hard work begins!! Rest assured I will get this done even if it kills me!! ;) Perhaps we'll discuss the trials and tribulations of product development and release over a few pints one day!

Thanks for your help and patience!
Steve M.
musicvid10 wrote on 5/22/2013, 7:59 PM
I'll take you up on the pints; as far as R&D, I've got people for that.