Mics and stands...for the camera.

farss wrote on 8/18/2012, 2:50 AM

Complaint from client:
"When I look at your videos of our group on stage all I see are mics and stands and leads, can you do something about that?"

She realises this isn't really my problem but her and I have been at the various sound guys for years without really making much progress so the ball is in my court. I do have an answer, the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series mics and stands, These were made not just to sound great but also to look great. They also cost big time. A mic around $1,200 and then there's the tubes and even the floor stand is around $400, that's JUST the base too. I'm certain this kit is worth the money but I need more than one, maybe eight plus a variety of length tubes etc so I'd be looking at around $20K all up, cough, cough.
If anyone is interested here is a link to the components of the whole Senny system. One other nice feature is there's no mic cables dangling down from the mic(s), that's why the whole setup becomes so expensive.

I have bought one Rode NT6 and it sounds good, nice and small but then it has to go on some ugly massive stand which defeats most of what I've gained, doesn't anyone make stands with smaller tubes. If anyone's got some ideas or thoughts much appreciated. I have a roll of matte black gaffe tape which does help a bit to hide stuff on stage in front of the camera but I'd like a better solution, something elegant that will not break the bank.

Bob.

Comments

ChristoC wrote on 8/18/2012, 4:36 AM

Yes, AKG have had a similar Mic+Tube system since forever, as have Schoeps and DPA; both also cost an arm and a leg; there are also active cable systems available so hanging mics can be very small indeed.
Unfortunately the Rode NT6 doesn't quite cut it for me, having a slightly 'edgy' sound.... (My benchmarks are B&K(now DPA)4004/4006, Sennheiser MKH40/20 and Schoeps Colette series.)
Regardless, the bottom line is if you want good sound you just have to use good mics which must also be placed correctly.

paul_w wrote on 8/18/2012, 6:14 AM

Would going over to radio mics help? Not knowing the bands' layout its hard to say. I'm sure you thought of that already so i'm guessing there's more to it.
Headset mics like CountryMan etc? and a receiver rack somewhere supplying feeds to desk.
At least that could reduce the amount of cables and possible some mic stands.
Its probably the most cost effective way to reduce cables and stands.

Paul.

ChristoC wrote on 8/18/2012, 6:22 AM

Radio mics in general have very low signal-to-noise ratio (i.e. they are relatively noisy) and higher distortion than a good wired mic; they are also subject to interference & dropouts.

paul_w wrote on 8/18/2012, 7:50 AM

Depends on the quality/model of the radio system Chris.

Paul.

farss wrote on 8/18/2012, 7:52 AM

I did think of wireless but those "butt plug" units are pretty big. Plus the latest G3 ones from Senny don't provide phantom power.
Headset mics are not much help, need to mic acoustic instruments.
These are Indian singers and musicians, seated on the floor. Say I have a singer also playing a harmonium, that two mics + stands = lots of visual clutter.

Sure I know good mics cost but for what I do and the budgets I don't have Rode mics are a breath of fresh air. One thing I did a while back was record and shoot a "jam" session in a loungeroom. I thought there'd be a sound guy along but he didn't show up so it was just me and a Rode NT4. Placed the musicians and singers around that until they balanced out OK. The tabla player who isn't deaf and quite critical was amazed by how good it all sounded. Unfortunately that isn't going to work for a concert.

One of the issues also is the sheer size of the mics. The trusty old SM58 is quite big, I have access to some Senny dynamics whichare good for stage which aren't quite as big but I'm still left with the stand problem. The Senny MKH 8000 kit is uber black and uber nice for video, just the darn price. Might be time to start asking the local importers for some BIG favours :)

Bob.

Tim20 wrote on 8/18/2012, 8:30 AM

Have you looked at something in the Audio Technica line? I have owned and do own a bunch of mics from cheap up to $800 and have never been disappointed in anything AT. I remember yrs agoing buying a Rode NTK only to totally disappointed in a horrible sounding piece of junk compared to a Studio Projects large condenser. I have since shyed away from any mic with a tube. Tubes in mics are finicky little boogers, don't start to sound good until they are good and warm, and finding a good tube when it goes south is not always an easy task.

But I can also tell you this. Spending tons of money on mics and tracking into something cheap that doesn't have a high end word clock and converters is a waste of time. The digital jitter causes a harshness that negates the good mics. Oh and of course you need good preamps which cost 500 to the sky per channel and some good compressors for quality.

A couple of well placed overheads and a mic for the singer tracked to 3 discreet tracks should be sufficient. Then you have some ability to mix and polish later.

But if you are going to get into the $1000 plus range why not go with Neumans?

farss wrote on 8/18/2012, 9:27 AM

"Have you looked at something in the Audio Technica line?"

Yes, I even own one of their uber cheap AT804 mics. Only bought it for the long stem. Works a treat. Also looked at their much more expesnive one that goes down to 10Hz for recording BIG pipe organs and their mics for violins, very nice although they seem to break all the rules for recording acoustic insturments!

"But if you are going to get into the $1000 plus range why not go with Neumans?"

Well trying very hard not to go into the $1,000 plus range :)

But, but, look at the size of the Neumans, and they're shiny, silvery things.
Also these are to be used not just for recording but also for sound reinforcement..on a stage. The standard mic is the SM58, has been for about as long as I've been alive. It is big, it is ugly and it is cheap. None of that matters too much usually except when you get a lot of them and the stands and other clutter all bunched together and all the camera sees is metal and mesh.

Did I mention one gig? The sound guy had all big dayglow pink velcro cable ties, all on the female XLRs on his leads!

Maybe there's a kickstart project to be had here?

Bob.

Tim20 wrote on 8/18/2012, 9:44 AM

Well how about some Sm57's, another workhorse without the big bulbous head?

Neumans come in black too :)

Another possiblity might be Oktava's.

rraud wrote on 8/18/2012, 9:47 AM

How about some of the hanging choir type mics, they are small, unobtrusive and not terribly expensive. They can be flown or hidden pretty easily.
http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Hanging-Choir-Microphones.html

musicvid10 wrote on 8/18/2012, 11:05 AM

rraud,
"How about some of the hanging choir type mics"

+1

I used up to seven AT PRO45s for over 12 years, and if you're careful with the cables, they last forever. Interspersed with a couple of PCC 160s on the stage in the gaps, one can cover any reasonably sized stage.

farss wrote on 8/18/2012, 3:38 PM

Now we're cooking, thank you all.

On the Full Compass site I also found the Audix MB5050. Between that and the Sure MX202B my day is looking brighter. The Sure is attractive because of the included goose neck and accessories. The Audix might be good becuase of the extra reach.

Thanks to bouncing ideas around here I also had a "light bulb" moment. In part the issue is exacerbated by the angle I'm forced to shoot at. At best we're right on the eye line, at worst a bit under it. Getting a bit above the eye line would make the world of difference, more face, less mic + clips + stand.

Bob.

farss wrote on 8/21/2012, 6:55 AM

Spent a few hours at a local stage and event trade show today bugging the Audix, Senny and AT vendors. Took them a while to get our heads around the problem but it turns out all their choir mic capsules are also used in their conference systems. That opened a whole new range of possibilities of goosenecks and cast iron bases. There's quite a range of options ranging from $200 to over $1,200. Audix have a considerable range that maybe as good as the Senny kit at around half the price. Not quite as good looking though being gloss black instead of uber matte but they're so small it will not matter that much.

Bob.

rs170a wrote on 8/21/2012, 7:34 AM

Bob, the following thread from the jwsound forum is somewhat related to the problems you're going through so hopefully you might be able to get some ideas from it.
Microphone suggestion to record opera singers

Mike

musicvid10 wrote on 8/21/2012, 9:51 AM

microphonemadness.com has several dozen small=element mics in different designs and arrays. Their top end line uses Sennheiser OEM elements at a greatly reduced price (some of the rest use EV elements that aren't bad but handle lower SPLs).

I own and recommend these mics to others for their durability and price.

farss wrote on 8/21/2012, 4:46 PM

Thanks
microphonemadness is certainly the right price. I'd have to look into how to mate some of those mics into a desk that's got 48V phantom on XLRs and I'd probably also need to do some work on stands etc. Still for the price it is attractive.

One aspect to this saga I should have explained from the get go is generally I have to convince the FOH sound guy to use these mics and that is no trivial task. On one such event I had "the guy" have a bit of a dummy spit because I was taking a feed from "his" desk plus I'd put my own stereo mic on the stage. I got a lot of angst because he then felt I was saying "his" mix wasn't good enough. Some guys are great and some can be a major PIA. Like the guys who bury the talent behind the biggest fold back speakers they can find or block every camera angle with subs. You ask them to move them and then find out the leads are already pulled tight, grr. The number of time I've had to save the day supplying the sound guy with stands, leads and mics, double grr. To top that off I'm also expected to help light the stage and even shoot the video!

Some good news.
Thanks to that little narrative drama I shot and acted in a few months back one of my clients / friends / associates got funding to do a show properly, to be staged at the Sydney Opera House in a theatre with real rear projection and stage hands etc, etc. We're even getting real talent this time. I only mentiont this because this lady has worked on this project for around a decade, if you've got a dream, believe in it and just keep at it, with a bit of luck the stars will come into alignment and your dream will come true.

Bob.

paul_w wrote on 8/21/2012, 7:41 PM

Bob, that is good news! And congrats to all concerned. Brilliant result!

That cheered me up. Because being currently out of a job, wondering what the hell to do next or even if i can, kind of starts to get to you after a while. If that lady has any spare magic good luck dust left after that, could you please ask her to sprinkle a bit this way.

Thanks for that positive message. Kinda needed to hear something like that.

Paul.

farss wrote on 8/22/2012, 8:20 PM

Paul_w:

Know where you're coming from. I really cannot say much that isn't going to be trite or that I'm certain you've heard before. I've had the"black dog" on my back decades ago. Whatever you do, don't let that dog get to you, he is a devil to get rid of.
My only advice, certain you know this, just keep doing something. Being with other people who have a positive outlook really keeps that black dog at bay.

Everyone else:

Just thought I'd share some specifics, might save someone a lot of searching.

So far I'm leaning towards the Audio Technica U857QL.
If that's a bit rich for your budget then there's the cheaper PRO49QL.

The first is a more "pro" setup with switchable low cut and a better response...or is it??? :)

Either way, both are available with a choice of capsules under different part numbers and different length goosenecks. I'd go for the "L". You can still use it on a desk and it gives better reach for instruments and vocalists etc.

None of these are "studio" mics, lets get that out of the way. S/N is nothing exciting and there's certainly way better mics such as LDCs for the same money. That said going by what the AT agents said the frequency response is quite flat and uncoloured. For stage the hypercardiod variants could be good for avoiding feedback.

There are better to be had, Audix, Sennheiser and Schoeps all have solutions but the AT offering seems reasonably affordable and that's important when you're not the BBC and need a couple or more of them.

Bob.

musicvid10 wrote on 8/22/2012, 9:48 PM

AT small-element condensers are hot and bright. Careful placement and response shaping are important whether they will be used for live sound reinforcement, recording, or both.

An excellent choice.

farss wrote on 8/27/2012, 11:59 PM

Musicvid,
thanks for the input. I just picked one up along with the quite heavy table base, managed to wrangle a good price as well :)

Just a quick review for anyone who is interested, I'll stick to only the aspects not covered by others or obvious from the specifications.

The Microphone:

U857QL.
Supplied with a quite modern looking foam windsock. A bit of a struggle to get on but it does dress up the mic very nicely. The finish of the mic, gooseneck and tube is a quite matte black, the AT photographs fail to show just how matte it is.

Both of the flexible gooseneck sections are stiff enough to hold the mic in any position without requiring undue effort to move it. If used as a conventional conference mic on a table the longer stem would be a plus as it has enough reach to leave the speaker room for their papers and the small profile of the mic wouldn't block their view of any papers they need to read.

Sat on the floor using the base the mic can be positioned high enough for a number of acoustic instruments and singers who sit on the floor. A connvention short mic base and mic clip could be used to hold this mic by the XLR connector for additional height or reach. The long thin gooseneck / tube still ensures the face or instrument is not blocked from the camera's view.

The Base:
AT8615AII.
The base provides a female XLR connector on the top to take a number of mics. A male XLR connector on the rear side provides connection for the mic lead to the mixer / recorder / whatever. This gets the lead flat onto the floor and will minimise clutter.
The base has four quite sticky, soft feet. These should provide some shock / vibration isolation and in combination with the weight of the base no way will anyone kick this over or off a stage by accident.

All in all, so far very happy with this purchase.

Bob.