moving clips in the timeline

EarthGuest wrote on 4/26/2019, 6:08 PM

hi there=)

I am trying to synchronize two layers (clips) and it is seemingly impossible?

 

The resolution of the "jumps" of the clips in the timeline is too big...

 

I found that I could move a clip forwards or backwards in the timeline only one frame at a time. I could increase the reolution of the clip to close to 60fps- this gave me smaller "steps" for adjusting the clip, but it is still not enough.

 

How can i move the start of a clip smoothly so -i can sync two clips together?

Holding ctrl or another modifier would be really nice - so the clip beginning does not jump in frames, but in a smooth flow (split one frame "jump" into 100 or 200 jump segments for example)

 

example: to sync two clips, I would need to start clipA at the beginning. I then need to add clipB at approx frame 197 (if it were at a 240FPS resolution... - the highest vegas studio goes is 59.940 FPS..

 

We need clips to start where we want , not to be limited by jumpy framerates to define the start of a clip.

 

Is this possible?

 

Thanks for your help =)

Comments

Dot wrote on 4/26/2019, 9:32 PM

Video is defined by FRAMES. The smallest increment that you can move video is a FRAME.

3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 12:20 AM

Video is defined by FRAMES. The smallest increment that you can move video is a FRAME.

That's true for video, but for audio it can be smaller. To move the audio in smaller increments than the framerate, disable in options "quantize to frames".

Changing the timeline resolution to more frames makes no sense, framerate of the clip is dominant.

Last changed by 3POINT on 4/27/2019, 12:25 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 3:24 AM

Hey gang=)

 

Thanks for your input=)

 

dot -> Yes, I am aware of frames, the thing is, I want to define when and where the 1st frame starts for each video track clip.

3point-> I know audio very well... in the audio world, "video frames" are called "samples" ;) -> the framerate of the clip is not dominant here, that is what I am trying to tell you. the project framerate is dominant and all clips have to adhere to it. - It is impossible to set a start point in the timeline wherever you want. one is limited by the set frames of the timeline - making all clips/tracks "dependent" of its position (instead of having all tracks start where they want , while still retaining the projects parent FPS..) All tracks are slave to the master instead of working together and - when rendering, adhering to the exported FPS... Does this make sense to you? =) p.s. changing the timeline resolution makes perfect sense... before I could move the clip in (1) step jumps, now I can move the clip in (0.25) step jumps - It gives me more precise control... think of it as :

now> it has "snap to grid" enabled and jumps into its pre-defined place.

Later> it has "snap off" (you can also use a modifier key to override snap) you can place it anywhere in time.

the movie still has its set "fps" but you can choose where the clips start.

- You see, I cannot sync two clips to each other how it is now (one clip needs to start at frame 1, the other clip needs to start at 1 1/2 frames in...

 

Thanks for any help=)

Marco. wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:13 AM

That's the way video works.

EricLNZ wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:19 AM

I don't understand what you are trying to do. Wherever a clip starts the video will be rendered to the nearest frame when you export. So it's pointless having it start between frames. What fps do you intend rendering to?

EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:19 AM

thats the way video doesn't work ;)

- You tell any hollywood studios that you cannot sync two clips (visually) together and they will laugh at you...

EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:23 AM

Let me try to explain it better...

 

you have two clips .. .both of a stop watch... they do not line up exactly (one lags behind the other) - the goal is to have them "visually" synced so that the stopwatch displays are running at the same time...

 

I hope I am making sense... (its not a technical frames or export issue..)

 

Thanks=)

3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:29 AM

H3point-> I know audio very well... in the audio world, "video frames" are called "samples" ;) ->

OK, than you also understand that you can`t move audio in smaller increments than it's sample rate. The same counts for video, you cannot move in smaller increments than it's framerate.

What are trying to synchronise audio or video? When it's audio only, disable "quantize to frames". When it's audio with video, ungroup audio and video first.

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3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:34 AM

you have two clips .. .both of a stop watch... they do not line up exactly (one lags behind the other) - the goal is to have them "visually" synced so that the stopwatch displays are running at the same time...

Not when both cameras are synchronised with a sync generator, that's what they do in Hollywood studios.

Last changed by 3POINT on 4/27/2019, 4:36 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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j-v wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:41 AM

I am trying to synchronize two layers (clips) and it is seemingly impossible?

You need a framerate of 240 fps you said, that is in VMS not possible .

The highest possible framerate for a project can be 120 f/ps as I show you here

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vkmast wrote on 4/27/2019, 4:46 AM

A Warning (still) in Vegas Pro 16 online Help (F1) at the end of the item on "Quantize to frames":

"Edits that do not occur on frame boundaries can produce an undesirable visual result. For example, if you split two events and move them together to create a cut, splits that are not at frame boundaries can produce a short dissolve in your rendered video."

3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:03 AM

I am trying to synchronize two layers (clips) and it is seemingly impossible?

You need a framerate of 240 fps you said, that is in VMS not possible .

The highest possible framerate for a project can be 120 f/ps as I show you here

That doesn't make no sense at all. When I shoot two pictures of an event with two different cameras and both pictures are not taken at the exact same timing, you cannot make them equal in time by moving them on the timeline how many extra increments/frames that timeline has.

3POINT, Theo Houben, Vegasuser since version 5

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EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:12 AM

hmm, ok, what you say about "samples" and "framerates" makes sense...

Maybe we need to change how the whole system works... to *apply* fix framerates only on export while retaining each tracks individual place in time... - Think of the render process like this: each track clip can start wherever it wants to in time -(first frame start time) - then , the program acts like a camera that applies its framerate to the export (whatever it sees in it lens... )

This would allow track A to run at 60fps, track B to run at 25 fps, track C to run at whatever - They can all start wherever they want in the timeline, independent of the projects "snapping to a certain framerate dominance".. The clips would then be "free" and the programs duty is to act like a camera and simply record what it sees at its own framerate preference... Make sense? ;)

 

-> I was trying to sync two video clips without audio... one was recorded with a camera, one was captured using screen capture software from a computer screen.. - Impossible to sync with any sync protocols.. hence the need to have each clip start wherever I need it to in the timeline so I can "visually/manually" sync what I see...

 

Thanks for all of your help and comments so far=)

 

I appreciate it.=)

EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:16 AM

When I shoot two pictures of an event with two different cameras and both pictures are not taken at the exact same timing, you cannot make them equal in time by moving them on the timeline how many extra increments/frames that timeline has.

Sure, just think of it as two record players playing different speed tracks... one can simply adjust the pitch of one to make the tracks "sync" - We need a "pitch/slew" slider for the individual tracks that will enable them to slide forward or backwards a bit in time...;)

Marco. wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:16 AM

"You tell any hollywood studios that you cannot sync two clips (visually) together and they will laugh at you..."

I'm in the broadcast business long enough to know how the technical base works and how video is synchronized. It is technical impossible to move or cut digital video other than frame (or field) based. Audio works differently. Even if you would move your timeline Events in Vegas Pro in smaller steps than frames (what actually is possible), this is just GUI cosmetics and video would still be processed frame/field based.
And this isn't a Vegas Pro thingy – in no video editing application in this world digital video would be processed other than frame (or field) based. You can change your frame grid, but you can't loose digital video from being processed frame/field based.

EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:39 AM

hi Marco=)

Please do not interpret my comment as an insult... It wasn't "You" specifically... It was "me" or "anybody"...;)

Even if you would move your timeline Events in Vegas Pro in smaller steps than frames (what actually is possible), this is just cosmetics and video would still be processed frame/field based.

Yes, this is exactly what I am trying to achieve... Do you know how I would go about it?

 

Thanks for all your help and comments=)

3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:41 AM

When I shoot two pictures of an event with two different cameras and both pictures are not taken at the exact same timing, you cannot make them equal in time by moving them on the timeline how many extra increments/frames that timeline has.

Sure, just think of it as two record players playing different speed tracks... one can simply adjust the pitch of one to make the tracks "sync" - We need a "pitch/slew" slider for the individual tracks that will enable them to slide forward or backwards a bit in time...;)

That's no problem in VMS, just hold the CTRL key while stretching or shrinking an event with your mouse.

Last changed by 3POINT on 4/27/2019, 5:43 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:47 AM

hey 3point=)

Thanks for that, but, alas, it is not quite what I am after...

 

I do not want to strech or shrink the clip, I just want the clips first frame to start exactly where I want it to in time...

3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:53 AM

This would allow track A to run at 60fps, track B to run at 25 fps, track C to run at whatever - They can all start wherever they want in the timeline, independent of the projects "snapping to a certain framerate dominance".. The clips would then be "free" and the programs duty is to act like a camera and simply record what it sees at its own framerate preference... Make sense? ;)

Also no problem with VMS, VMS will resample all events that are not equal to the project frame rate.

3POINT, Theo Houben, Vegasuser since version 5

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3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 5:55 AM

I just want the clips first frame to start exactly where I want it to in time...

And that's framerate based....

3POINT, Theo Houben, Vegasuser since version 5

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EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 6:22 AM

let me give you an audio example.. the sample rate of the project is 44.1 KHz (44100 "fps" in pseudo video terms)

The project will reproduce audio at this rate. Then, there are some instruments (video tracks in pseudo babble again)

that have their own "internal" sample rate (fps) of say 96KHz (96000 fps in pseudo comparative analogy babble)

- The project then records the 96KHz audio into a 44.1KHz environment... (without speed changes or whatever) Basically like an "overview" master of playback...

A video clip can start on the 1.29th frame of the projects timeline, yet still adhere to the master FPS rate when played back or rendered - the render just starts "recording" with its own FPS, no matter where or what the other clip is doing...

 

I do not have a problem with the program "recording/playing back" at its set framerate... I just want a clips "first frame" to start at the projects 1.29th (for example) frame instead of the projects frame 1... - the project can still render or play at its own framerate- no problem - just let me move the clips start point anywhere in time... - Maybe a new "framerate positioning resolution" mode would work... one frame in the timeline can be split up into 100's of "micro-frames" just for positioning purposes (where a clip starts to play)

EricLNZ wrote on 4/27/2019, 6:56 AM

What's the point. As we've tried to explain to you, but you clearly don't understand, your render will be to the nearest frame. So your 1.29th position will get moved to 1.0 on render.

3POINT wrote on 4/27/2019, 7:37 AM

Last attempt. 1 second of video consists out 30 frames/pictures or samples to speak in audio terms. Putting that second on a 60 frames timeline doesn't change those 30 frames. Rendering that timeline will just double each frame, show it twice or resamples extra frames by creating extra frames by blending. But the information that is shown is still 30 frames. Even splitting up one videoframe or timeline in microframes makes no difference to that.

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EarthGuest wrote on 4/27/2019, 7:40 AM

You can keep your snide "whats the point" remarks to yourself, thanks =) - And please, speak for yourself and not for everybody... by saying "we"... your comment clearly shows that you do not have a concept of harmonious "we, and us" but instead want to look down and degrade others...

 

So what you are saying is that no matter if I move a clip, in the way marco commented:

"Even if you would move your timeline Events in Vegas Pro in smaller steps than frames (what actually is possible), this is just cosmetics and video would still be processed frame/field based."

the final render would quantise the clips start position?

 

Can someone please tell me how to "move your timeline Events in Vegas Pro in smaller steps than frames (what actually is possible) "

 

Thank you for your help=)

 

- and, no hard feelings, Eric..;) - You throw some so you can catch some;)