New User and questions

chudson wrote on 6/22/2010, 6:52 PM
Hi all,
took sony up on it's crossgrade offer and am now a vegas user. I used Corel VSx3 prior. A couple of quick questions. Just throwing a few clips together to make a small 9min movie takes about 40mins to render in vegas using an AVC template where as in VSx3 it takes about 12 to render with the same AVC settings. Is something not right here? Also , preview is quite jerky comparitivly. Surely a 100 app does not perform better than $600 one does it for bread and butter editing? Any insight on parameters I need to tweak?
Thanks!!

CH

Comments

PerroneFord wrote on 6/22/2010, 7:02 PM
Welcome to Vegas. I predict this thread will get somewhat heated and contentious. Don't worry, it's not you.

That said, I will say that Vegas has several widely discussed issues and a major one for numerous people is playback performance. Rendering speed is affected by a great many things. Especially the codec. Out of curiosity, do you do the Mainconcept AVC encode or the Sony AVC encode?
i c e wrote on 6/22/2010, 7:08 PM
Hello and welcome to Vegas, you will love it, eventually.
I have seen Corel's and to me Vegas blows it out of the water. When I first got Vegas I had a mega amount of problems... still have some. But it just takes time and patience. You have to adjust your settings here and there to make sure you are not slowing it down unnecessarily.

Do you have many fx on it?

Vegas is awesome and I am sure you will get it figured out. If I have a slow render project.. just set them aside and render through the night. My work around. lol.

peace.
kkolbo wrote on 6/22/2010, 7:29 PM
We do not know what your source footage is. You processor is a little slow on the clock speed if it is the one I think it is but regardless it is possible that the render would take longer and the preview may be choppier. Vegas is not optimized for .h264 the way a consumer application is. It has so much more power and options that it can make its performance weaker. Here are a couple of notes that may give you a better experience.

Render on Good rather than Best. Best makes a difference when you are changing the size of the video significantly, but not when it will stay the same. Best slows it down considerably.

Set your preview window to Preview instead of good or best. Uncheck some of the options on the preview window, right click in the preview window to see.

Under Options | Preferences | Video Try setting your Dynamic Ram Preview to 64mb and your Maximum number of threads to 8.

Make sure that your project settings match you source footage. You can do that by opening the project properties dialog. Click on the folder button which is the match media settings button. Navigate to your source footage and click on one of the files. That will set the project to match your source and reduce the load on Vegas preview FX etc.

See if any of that helps. If you are using ,h264 source you can expect longer render times and choppy preview. True AVCHD such as what comes out of the Sony Webbies does not have that problem. In fact, their output acts like HDV in performance.

I am sure others will have more suggestions for you.

KK
xberk wrote on 6/22/2010, 8:52 PM
Welcome. I can't speak to the speed issues vs any other editor. I'm deeply invested in Vegas. I don't use anything else. Your i7 machine should be fast enough to give you a smooth preview in Vegas Pro 9.0e with native AVCHD -- I get very good previews with my i5-750 on native AVCHD. Mostly full frame rate. But many here transcode to MXF and say it is even better. I work in small sections of 5 min or so and combine those in the final render. . Vegas has all the tools to do this workflow well, including nested veg files and using multiple instances of Vegas at the same time and loseless renders that combine easily.

FOr me it's about the total editing process -- once you have the basics of Vegas learned and are comfortable using Vegas, I'd be curious to see what you think vs Corel. Is Vegas overall better for you?
chudson wrote on 6/23/2010, 11:59 AM
Thanks for all the welcomes.
To be clear, I LOVE the workflow in vegas. I find it 100% more intuitive than that of Corels. My source is AVCHD files from a Canon hg10. 1440x1080. I am importing, editing and rendering at the same resolution so no frame size rendering going on.Preview playback in general is pretty good in vegas, chokes on transitions though. No doubt it is a very powerful app. It just seems funny to me that a cheepy consumer grade app performs better at something that we do 90% of the time than a "Pro" app like vegas out of the box. I will try the tweaks and see if that helps.

CH
kkolbo wrote on 6/23/2010, 12:12 PM

Pro apps and consumer apps have different focuses. AVCHD is just now starting to enter the Prosumer market. It has been a consumer format. I am sure that as it penetrates deeper you will see better performance. Conversely I doubt many consumer apps have great support for RED1, XDCAM EX, and 2K formats.

Here is another trick for you.
To see the transition at a better rate, let the cursor loop across it a couple of times. Each time it will get faster as Vegas renders more of the frames to RAM for you.

You can also drag a time selection across the transition and press SHIFT + B and Vegas will render it to RAM for you. Unlike having to render it in FCP or PP the render to RAM is very fast and does not clog up your drive.

Welcome to Vegas. It will take a while to become one with it.

KK
farss wrote on 6/23/2010, 5:12 PM
"Pro apps and consumer apps have different focuses."

There's a mountain of wisdom in that. I'd add a phrase from the world of hunting "you can have too much gun".

I've used quite a few cheap consummer level apps to get the job done quickly and cheaply.

Bob.
ushere wrote on 6/23/2010, 5:44 PM
just to echo bob, i regularly use womble for simple stitching and authoring.
chudson wrote on 6/24/2010, 7:33 AM
"Conversely I doubt many consumer apps have great support for RED1, XDCAM EX, and 2K formats."

True, they probably don't support them at all. That is preferable to half baked supporting something. Either support it or don't. They've updated Vegas several time and list AVCHD as supported. Although it is does work, it does not work as good in Vegas as other formats do. I would think if a "Pro" app is going to support something, it would do so in a manner that at least was at par with "consumer" apps. Of course that's just an oppion and you know what they say those are like ;)



Earl_J wrote on 6/24/2010, 8:08 AM
Hello CH,
welcome to the wonderful world of Sony video editing... of course with Vegas Pro, it is so much more (audio, FX, titling, DVD authoring) than just video editing; as I am certain you will discover soon enough.

There is a wealth of support and expertise here in the forum.

Make sure you take advantage of all the free training and tutorials that are available online for Vegas editing tools and techniques (vimeo and others) ... many of which I've never used (the techniques are so advanced, and I'm such a novice) ... (grin)

Once again... welcome aboard ...

Until that time... Earl J.
Byron K wrote on 6/24/2010, 11:17 AM
I also have and use Corel's VSX3 and it's a good program for it's customer target base. The reason VSX3 is so smooth w/ their transitions and play back is because it uses auto proxies which automatically reduce the resolution for better playback. (imho, something that Vegas should give the option to use). VSX3 also uses CUDA GPU which may help performance and rendering (something that I hope Vegas Pro 10 will have).

Now, as you will find out as you use Vegas Pro, there are many more features in Vegas Pro that VSX3 doesn't have but for now you need a powerful CPU processor to get decent performance and reduced render times.

You can create your own proxies to get better playback using the Proxy Stream script found here:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=699579

If you're not familiar w/ proxy editing in Vegas here are some quick tips:

Step by step proxy instructions is posted on Eugenia's blog just google "Eugenia proxy" (;

"proxy" files can also be made using a number of other converter softwares like Super, MediaConverter, Format Factory, Squared5 as well but since you have Vegas Pro, IMHO, the Proxy Stream script is much better and cleaner.

1st, consolidate all the original footage for a project in one folder we can call it "o" (Original Footage).

Create a new proxy file folder in the same subfolder where "o" folder is, we can call it "vwf" (Vegas Working Folder). Create the proxy files in this folder. Note the proxy file names must match the original file names and convert them in the "vwf" (Vegas Working Folder)

Open Vegas and edit the proxy videos in the "vwf" folder
When you're done editing the proxy files do this:

1. Save the project and close Vegas
2. Change the name of the "vwf" folder to something like "p" (proxy)
3. Change the name of original folder "o" to "vwf"
4. reopen Vegas and render.

Note that the "vwf" and original folders must be in the same sub directory for this to work properly. Also it's easier if the proxy footage is the same extension as the original footage.
VegasNinja wrote on 6/24/2010, 12:56 PM
If you are a new user I would suggest to check out vegasproeditors.com it has everything you need to get thru the horrendous learning curves and get you going quickly on your projects
John_Cline wrote on 6/24/2010, 1:04 PM
I understand the desire to promote your new web site, but the statement, "has everything you need" is simply not true. Your web site has lots of potential, but the content is pretty thin at this point.
kkolbo wrote on 6/24/2010, 1:15 PM
VPE,

I appreciate your enthusiasm with marketing your new site, but I have been there and there is only one tutorial that I could find and it was how to use your product. It may be a bit early to send new users there and market in forums.

It looks like it is going to be a good site. Best of luck.

chudson wrote on 6/26/2010, 9:18 AM
As for the consumer app vs pro app reasoning for reasonable performance with AVCHD, I just installed the Sony Vegas consumer app , it it performs about the same. This points to a Vegas engine issue. Looks like the only viable solution is to use an intermediate format.
Is there a way to convert to an intermediate format in Vegas during the import, similar to how iMovie on the mac converts to AIC, or does it have to be a multi step process? TIA


CH