Shrinking parent of nested tracks clips child effects.. help?

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/4/2019, 9:51 PM

Hi... been working with Vegas for many years and haven't found a good answer to this.. hoping someone here can help.

SCENARIO:

  1. I'm creating a composite title screen where I ultimately want the different elements to resize/move together
  2. The different graphic elements are on separate tracks, as children to a parent track.
  3. I can resize and move them all together using Parent Track Motion, and DO resize them all using parent track motion so they are the size and position I want them in.

PROBLEM:

When I apply visual effects (e.g. RAYS) to one of the graphic elements, the rays clip at the edge of the now-smaller (resized) frame, instead of going all the way out to the edges of the screen. This looks bad. :(

 

I found that if I apply the effect (RAYS) to the master output, it goes out to the edge of the screen, but isn't really accomplishing the composite I want. I do realize I could keyframe the movements of each child element and then not nest them to a parent, and resize the individual elements using Event Pan/Crop -- but that's neither elegant or precise.

Is there a simple way to avoid this clipping problem which I haven't found?

It'd be super neat if, when adding an effect, I could say that it should avoid parent resizing/bounds.

Comments

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 3:51 AM

I think you need to apply those FX as (Child) Track FX and then put it after Composite in the FX chain.

 

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/5/2019, 7:27 AM

Tried that yesterday after doing some reading.. didn't help. The rays still ended at the edges of the resized (smaller) parent track frame.

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 7:56 AM

Then another try is to use the Picture-in-Picture FX as Event FX for scaling before the Light Rays FX and use Track Motion for positioning/moving only (it would not touch the Parent Motion processing).

I used 3rd party Rays FX for this one.

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/5/2019, 10:29 AM

@Marco. In your example image, it looks like you applied the Rays FX to the track and it added it to the edges of the track not the contents of it (event FX).

I get what you're suggesting -- scale using PIP instead of Track Motion (could apply as track FX on the children tracks if I want, ya?), and then apply the rays FX as wanted, and they'd extend out to the full output frame still.

I guess that means I have to upgrade my licenses from V14 to V16 to get the PIP effect, eh? ;-)

For this one, the graphic was just a simple 2-layers so I scaled each one on the event and made it work, but often I have many more layers, so using parent/child layering really would be very helpful.

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 11:11 AM

In this case above it is an Event FX, not a Track FX, see screenshot below.

For Vegas Pro 14 instead of Picture-in-Picture you could also use a 3rd party sizing plug-in or the Vegas Pro Deform FX.

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/5/2019, 11:21 AM

Huh. I never considered using Deform to scale an image/event. What would the advantage be of doing that vs event Pan/Crop? In either case, I can't take multiple events and nest as children under a parent track, and simple scale them all as a set.

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 11:36 AM

Pan/Crop may affect the positioning of the rays which may lead to undesired results.

"In either case, I can't take multiple events and nest as children under a parent track, and simple scale them all as a set."

Why not? This will still work. I'll upload a sample VP14 project bit later.

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/5/2019, 11:45 AM

"Why not?" Because I didn't think you could apply a track effect to a parent track (e.g. the deform) and have it apply to all children tracks or events automatically. BUT.. I just tried this by applying it to the track FX of the parent and switching the effect to be after the composite, and it DID apply that effect to all children.

NEAT!

One problem -- when I use deform there as you suggested, to scale down the children images, the rays crop to the scaled down frame and don't extend all the way to the edges :( Same problem as pan/cropping the parent track.

 

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 12:16 PM

See -> this VP14 project file.

In the screenshot above you applied Deform as Track FX, not as Event FX.

In my sample project I applied Deform and Light Rays as Event FX and used Deform for the scaling. I then used Track Motion of the foreground and background track for positioning the single frames and Parent Motion of the Master Track to animate both frames synchroniously.

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/5/2019, 3:12 PM

If you push in on the parent track and move around, you'll see the child tracks are still suffering from the ray effect being clipped by the bounds of those children tracks.

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 3:54 PM

Yes, there's still a border which comes from the Deform FX. To avoid this one only way out in VP14 is to use the Rays FX with more subtle adjustments.

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/5/2019, 4:08 PM

grrr. OK. And with VP16? (I see the lowered the upgrade price back down for a week or two.. strongly considering)

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 4:14 PM

Not better. I'm looking for another way of compositing now.

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 4:45 PM

A way with its very own pros and cons is using nesting. For each of your shrinked frames make a separate project and use whatever tool you want for decreasing the size, Track Motion, Pan/Crop, Deform, 3rd party plug-ins. Then save all these projects and use them nested in a master project which then adds Light rays and movement.

Making the shrinked frames larger inside the Master project will be a problem then because of quality loss.

RedRob-CandlelightProdctns wrote on 5/5/2019, 5:00 PM

A lot of work which could be avoided with a feature which allows effects to span the full output frame instead of being limited by child frames constraints. 😁

Marco. wrote on 5/5/2019, 5:14 PM

Yes, but I think this is logical technical design. When the Rays FX is calculated it needs to know its spatial limits which is defined by the place where the FX is added. So only way to calculate on base of new dimensions introduced by a Parent Motion processing is to add the FX in place of where this happens – on the very master track.

What it would need is a calculation which would tell the FX – even if applied on Event base – that it needs to refer to the output bus dimension.