check out the change of soundcard thread!

If you're only using the sound card for monitoring and not doing much in the way of mixing then probably not a lot is to be gained.

Even if you're trying to judge a mix better speakers would be more of a priority than expensive sound cards. If you cannot afford good speakers, good hadphones may suffice.

Once you get into recording, that's when soundcards really make a difference. I'd add that even the cheapest sound card most likely will not cause Vegas to crash. Once you get into the better gear and start using ASIO drivers is when things seem to start to come unstuck.

What more do you get ? Better frequency response,less distortion , better recordings, with a bit of luck less CPU usage....at the end it all will make a big difference!

If you only be monitoring the signal and not mixing and/or recording while you do video editing then..well...the advantages will be minimal.If you're serious about recording and playback(mixing) audio it actually will be a no-brainer.

Gerard.

I'll add to the mix this: you get to mix 5.1 for your video work! Shouldn't that be enough?!?! Mixing 5.1 audio in Vegas is loads of fun and easy to do. It really brings a project to life and might just give you an edge over some other video shops in your area. Jump onboard early I always say. Getting a good card is soooo worth it.

>>What do I gain with a more expensive sound card?<<

Simply everything related to audio quality and performance. If you are doing even semi-professional work, IMO, a good sound card is mandatory. And, as discussed in a recent thread on this forum, you might save some headaches by avoiding Maudio stuff (if you're working with Sony apps).

drbam

Thanks to all for the replies.

But I'm confused. If I use a separate USB device (in my case, an "Imic" dongle more common to the Mac world) to get audio in and out of the PC, that bypasses the soundcard completely, right? If that's true, then isn't a soundcard useful only as a "liason" between the PC and the analog speaker system? In other words, during the mixing and editing process, the sound card is not used at all, except as the gateway to the speakers, right?

Couldn't one make an analogy with a PCI firewire card? In that instance, a firewire card is used only when pulling DV into the PC, and when putting it back out to a tape. The rest of the time it doesn't do anything, and has no effect on the quality of the editing process.

And, of course, there's also the question of long-term viability. I wouldn't expect updated drivers to be readily available a few years down the road, though I should mention that the sound system seems to be working perfectly for now...

Cosmo: I should have mentioned in my original post that this "cheapo" card IS a 5.1 card. I've been fascinated in the past few weeks by listening to the surround mixes on the major Hollywood films, in order to see how and when they use those rear channels. I've actually been a little surprised that they don't put more sound back there. Maybe they've learned that people don't want to hear important stuff coming from behind, but rather just prefer the notion that there are ambient sounds back there.

"If you cannot afford good speakers, good hadphones may suffice."

Farss, stick to the video advice. Headphones will never suffice. I'ld recommend a cheap set of speakers over headphones any day. NEVER RELY ON A MIX MONITORED THROUGH HEADPHONES.

"that bypasses the soundcard completely, right? If that's true, then isn't a soundcard useful only as a "liason" between the PC and the analog speaker system? In other words, during the mixing and editing process, the sound card is not used at all, except as the gateway to the speakers, right?"

Yes that is true, but is one of the dumbest things you can do if you're mixing. You're monitoring through the sound card, yet your final mix is being passed out another device. So how do you know what your mix sounds like, when you're making adjustments on the mix that may be effected by the device you're listening too. I'll go back to my video card analogy. This is like doing video adjustments and looking at a cheap video card, and then laying those video adjustments to an external video device through something else which you haven't even seen.

I mix my stuff in headphones all the time(don't have GOOD monitors)...sorry red, not trying to pick at you!(really!) I agree though that headphones are NOT the last step in any good mix...but they do suffice if you can't get some good speakers to monitor with.

riredale - discovering good 5.1sound is indeed rather fun. DVD audio(like SACD) is even better. You would expect more sounds to be in the rear channels with movies - a common misconception with 5.1 soundtrack audio. The rear speakers - according to Dolby Labs, is for ambience primarily. The first thing I did a few years back when I got my first surround sound receiver was to crank the rear speakers all the way up. That's what a lot of people do and that's totally wrong. Get a decibel meter from Radio Shack and play test tones in each speaker. Get all the levels the same and you'll notice your rear speakers might seem like they're useless and nothing's coming out of them. Not so...it's just ambience for the most part.

There's two sides to every story and there are many films the will blow out your rear speakers in sections, and we love those! But for the mostpart, the rear channels are to add fullness to the front mix - not take away from it.

As for your 5.1 card - if it has 6 analog outputs you should be able to mix 5.1 in Vegas. There's lots of soundcard advice in here too...

Rednroll: I think I understand what you're saying, but in my case, when I create my next video project, it will have 5.1 audio, and those audio tracks will be used to make an AC-3 file that will then be authored into a DVD. So the soundcard will never see the finished result, or perhaps I should say that the soundcard will only see the finished result when I am playing my completed DVD disk on the PC using WinDVD.

Whoa there camper - how are you gonna mix 5.1 in Vegas without hitting your soundcard? Unless you have a card that has 6 analog outs and plays nice with Vegas you're not going to be able to hear your mix prior to encoding the ac3 file to DVD. If you're doing your soundtrack outside of the PC realm then you're right, you don't need it.

I really advise against trying to create 5.1 audio without a montoring system.

Right--I'm probably not communicating well.

What I mean is that if a cheap sound card has a lousy s/n ratio, it won't make a bit of difference to the audio track mixing--that's done inside Vegas and in the AC-3 encoding process. It won't contaminate the audio mixing process. All it will do is make the playback through your monitor speakers less than ideal, because it will add noise to the 6 analog outputs that go to the 6 speakers.

Am I still missing something?

>>I really advise against trying to create 5.1 audio without a montoring system. <<

LOL! Yes that'd be like attempting to create a video production while wearing a blindfold!

Bottome line: You HAVE to be able to accurately reference your audio mix *IF* you want professional results. A good soundcard is required to do this. Period! And I agree with Red (and most all professional audio engineers) headphones should be used only for checking certain *aspects* of a mix – not for creating the mix. The only exception to this would be a unique project that is designed primarily for end user headphone listening. Obviously 5.1 doesn't fit into that category. ;-)

drbam

The other part you're missing besides the signal to noise ratio of a cheap card, is the frequency response. A good sound card will have a flat frequency response, a cheap one will not. So when you mix, you will apply EQ and be compensating for the inadequecies of the sound card's frequency response. In other words if the cheap sound card has bad low frequency response, you will overly add low end EQ, for it to sound correct. There also may be a peak in the midrange, so you cut frequencies in the midrange. So then when you render and listen to it on other systems your mix will have too much bass, and not enough mid-range, therefore sounding boomy and thin.

This is the same problem with mixing through headphones. Headphones are a good check, as an additional monitor to check to see how your mix will sound through them. NO HEADPHONE has a flat frequency response, especially in the low end bass areas. That's because the speakers are much too small to adequately reproduce bass frequencies. You need a larger speaker to do this.....it's all physics. You will end up adding too much bass to your mixes to again compensate for the poor bass response of the headphones, and again your mix will sound like there's too much bass when played on other systems. If you want to mix through headphones, do so at your own risk, but don't say "I didn't tell you so.", when everyone says your mix sounds like sh*t.

+++ If you want to mix through headphones, do so at your own risk, but don't say "I didn't tell you so.", when everyone says your mix sounds like sh*t. +++

Laughing out loud, yes, really! I don't know why I didn't expect that but I didn't and it killed me!

Listen to Red...i hadn't even thought of those frequency response issues. I said I mix in headphones a lot - but I test everywhere known to man during the mastering process to make up for my lack of flat-response monitoring. You really should get a better card.

What card do you have? Just because it's a "5.1" card doesn't mean you can access all of those channels discretely in Vegas. I had that problem with a Hercules 5.1 card and then 2 SB cards. Then I got an M-audio(on a budget of course...hobby you know) and it's been OK for me. Lots of trouble around here with them but mine does OK for basic 5.1 mixing.

and do you want a couple more reasons?

Crosstalk. Crosstalk is where you may be playing sound through output1, but some of that signal may bleed into the other outputs, especially would be a problem for a 5.1 sound card where there is 6 outputs. So although your signal is routed to output 1, it's very well possible some of that signal will be heard in outputs 2 thru 6. A good sound card will have circuits placed in it to reject crosstalk problems, which usually means BALANCED outputs and BALANCED circuits throughout the audio signal processing on the sound card, along with noise filtering circuits. Balanced circuits components are more expensive than NON-BALANCED consumer products. That's because it takes twice the amount of circuits to make a balanced audio signal chain, than an unbalanced one.

Another difference is "SHIELDING". Their are many components added to keep outside noises from entering the audio signal circuits. Have you ever had a laptop and you moved the mouse and you could hear a clicking sound everytime you moved the mouse? That's because the mouse data transfer is slow enough, that it actually enters into the audio spectrum and the noise generated will bleed into the audio signal circuits, because there is no shielding circuits to elliminate outside sounds like this from entering your audio signal. It's all in the engineering and additional components that make a better sound card along with the software drivers to make them function properly. These are all things that can be skimped on to reduce the cost of a sound card. Again, it all boils down too, "you get what you pay for"

>>What I mean is that if a cheap sound card has a lousy s/n ratio, it won't make a bit of difference to the audio track mixing--that's done inside Vegas and in the AC-3 encoding process. It won't contaminate the audio mixing process.<<

Well it won't contaminate it in the way you are implying it here, but as Red pointed out, the mix can be "contaminated" by trying to compensate for the cheap soundcard through inappropriate or unnecessary eq and/or processing adjustments.

The analogy would be trying to produce a high quality video using a monitor that can't reproduce colors and hues accurately.

drbam

Indeed you do. Nuff said.

One more quick, mildly off topic, point on mixing in phones. Your stereo field will be all screwed up because of the left right isolation in phones as compared to speakers. Don't do it!
Steve S.

The main problem with mixing with phones I find is that they're too damn good. They have huge dynamic range... which your audience will likely not have. Your mix will end up too subtle.

Anyways... many reasons to avoid mixing on headphones.

And as I previously said,

"Headphones will never suffice. I'ld recommend a cheap set of speakers over headphones any day. NEVER RELY ON A MIX MONITORED THROUGH HEADPHONES."

Now we got a few more professionals telling you the same thing, so do you still think mixing in headphones will "suffice"?

Okay, guys, thanks.

A couple of thoughts. First, this card I picked up from Fry's is shown on the website www.ppa-usa.com. In other words, it's a no-name. But it works great. I don't have any formal specs butI've done an audio sweep and, to my aging ears, the card/speaker setup sounds pretty flat from about 45Hz up to at least 12,000Hz. No obvious holes or peaks.

In Vegas I am able to put an audio channel anywhere in the 2D space I want. So yes, the channels are independently addressable.

Finally, I would question the thought that headphones can't deliver decent bass. In fact, when I was in engineering school, we were taught that SPEAKERS were notoriously non-linear when compared to phones, especially when placed in anything but an anechoic chamber. I had a cheap pair of Sennheisers (and this was many years ago) that could reproduce the bass organ note in "Also Sprach Zarthustra." Boy, that dates me.

"Finally, I would question the thought that headphones can't deliver decent bass. In fact, when I was in engineering school, we were taught that SPEAKERS were notoriously non-linear when compared to phones"

Ok, you got me. Please mix through headphones they are suffice, after all what would I know about speakers and headphones. I'm only an engineer for JBL and AKG, I'm sure you got a lot more experience than me in engineering school. I'm pretty green to this whole audio thingy, it makes my head spin sometimes.

This is a good one too:
" I don't have any formal specs butI've done an audio sweep and, to my aging ears, the card/speaker setup sounds pretty flat from about 45Hz up to at least 12,000Hz."

Ahhhhhh.....you do know that the frequency response of your ears are not flat? So if infact your ears are saying it's flat, then indeed it is not flat. Read up on some Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves information, or did you maybe have missed that lesson in engineering school?

Obviously, you have your heart set on the $12.95 Fry's sound card and reliably being able to mix through a set of headphones. By all means go for it, just let us know where not to refer any clients too.