Comments

JohnnyRoy wrote on 3/17/2016, 1:53 PM
Yes, it makes a difference. I would set your Levels first before any color correction like white balancing. Then I would add Color Curves last to finish off the look.

Levels --> Color Correction/White Balance --> Color Curves

~jr
Paul Naish wrote on 3/19/2016, 2:50 PM
Thanks Johnny,

Shame that because computerRGB to studioRGB can be applied to the entire timeline whereas WB has to be applied clip by clip (because they are from different cameras in my edit.

I'll chip away at it to speed up that process.

Paul
musicvid10 wrote on 3/19/2016, 3:08 PM
Computer RGB for Preview levels would be best applied at the beginning of the chain, and then removed just prior to rendering.

Studio RGB applied to output with no filter during editing would be best applied at the end of the chain, with attention paid to redundancies along the way.

Either choice is valid, if for slightly different reasons.
And just my opinion, of course.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 3/20/2016, 7:38 AM
> "WB has to be applied clip by clip (because they are from different cameras in my edit"

I'm not sure what you mean by the term "clip" since Vegas Pro doesn't use that term. There are Events on the Timeline that contain Media. If you WB an Event it will not affect other Events. If you WB the Media (by adding a Media FX) it will WB all Events that use that Media.

So if by "clip" you mean the Events on the Timeline, it would be less work to add the WB to the Media (i.e., the camera files) instead of the Events.

~jr
Paul Naish wrote on 3/20/2016, 6:57 PM
Ah; I think that's what I'm looking for. I may be back with more questions if I can't work it out.

PN
Paul Naish wrote on 3/20/2016, 7:24 PM
Must be a Vegas Pro feature. I can save the effect as a preset & recall it but don't seem to be able to do a copy from one & paste to many
Paul Naish wrote on 3/21/2016, 3:17 AM
It seems that if you create an event on a low level 'workspace' track and apply a mediaFX to it, the change propagates all the way through to all the 'daughter' events you may have already created from it. However if you apply a video event FX it is applied just to that event whether it is the master event or not.

You don't seem to be able to apply media FX to assets in the 'project media' tab.

Is this correct?

Really cool

PN
vkmast wrote on 3/21/2016, 4:36 AM
There's the Adding video effects topic in the Application Help.
It includes chapters on Adding video event effects, video track effects, video media effects and video output effects etc.
Richard Jones wrote on 3/21/2016, 7:33 AM
Johny Roy wrote:-

[i] Yes, it makes a difference. I would set your Levels first before any color correction like white balancing. Then I would add Color Curves last to finish off the look.

Levels --> Color Correction/White Balance --> Color Curves [i]

and I hesitate to question such an expert but I've seen other people suggest that the order should be
White Balance -- Colour Curves -- Colour Corrector Secondary for Gamma, Gain and/or Offset -- Levels.

I've tended to follow this route of late and found that it seems to work pretty well so I'm just wondering about the underlying logic that might apply when thinking about the ordering of FX.

Richard
JohnnyRoy wrote on 3/21/2016, 7:41 AM
> "You don't seem to be able to apply media FX to assets in the 'project media' tab."

You sure can. Right-click on the media file in the Project Media tab and select Media FX... and apply your FX. They will affect every event that uses that media.

~jr
JohnnyRoy wrote on 3/21/2016, 7:56 AM
> "and I hesitate to question such an expert but I've seen other people suggest that the order should be"
> "White Balance -- Colour Curves -- Colour Corrector Secondary for Gamma, Gain and/or Offset -- Levels."

Never be afraid to question an expert. They can be wrong too. (...as can 14 year old kids on YouTube) ;-)

> "I've tended to follow this route of late and found that it seems to work pretty well so I'm just wondering about the underlying logic that might apply when thinking about the ordering of FX."

Let me give you the underlying logic then:

Before you do any color correcting you want to make sure that your luminance levels are within legal limits (between 0 - 100). Since luminance will affect how a color looks, it's important that this is set correctly so that you see the colors as they should be. This is why Levels goes first. BTW, you need to use your Scopes during this whole procedure. If you are not using your scopes you are just guessing blindly. Use the Waveform Monitor to set your levels.

Then you should make any Color adjustments next. The art of white balancing is color correcting. I use the Sony Color Corrector FX to white balance but if you use a separate plug-in, that would go next. Then use the Color Corrector to adjust your saturation, lift, gamma, gain, etc., according to taste. Use your Vector Scope to make sure that your colors remain within legal limits.

Color Curves goes last because adjusting the Levels will undoubtedly make your image look dull and washed out because Levels compresses the dynamic range. Color Curves gives you an opportunity to bring back the contrast that was lost by the Levels filter. It can also be used to add a slight 'S' curve to get a more film-like gamma so it goes last as a finishing touch. Adjust to taste but watch your Waveform Monitor to make sure you don't exceed legal limits.

There is no right and wrong ordering of FX (whatever works for you is right), but that's the logic behind my recommendation.

What's the logic behind what you suggest?

~jr
musicvid10 wrote on 3/21/2016, 9:12 AM
Here's another take on the logic of putting the levels filter last:

These are player- and broadcast-legal output levels in Vegas. They will pass muster at PBS, arguably the most stringent US broadcaster.
These are acheived in Vegas by editing in native preview space, and putting the studio levels filter dead last in the chain, on the video output bus.



Experiment. Placing the output levels filter early in the chain, generally results in chroma or luminance slop at the output [<16, >235], which "may" be acceptable to some stations, such those who still accept IRE chroma levels and post-level for digital streaming.

Even if its just for your own use, I recommend NEVER placing levels upstream of a high-pass (sharpen) filter, because the result on playback will likely be many blown white pixels, aka digital snow.

Again, this ordering is both WYSIWYG and failsafe for all web, device, and broadcast delivery, regardless of what upstream creative filtering combinations were employed..
Richard Jones wrote on 3/22/2016, 7:06 AM
Johny Roy wrote "[i] What's the logic behind what you suggest?[i]"

I'm sorry, I'm not expert enough to offer a reply save to say that I was following advice I've read elsewhere! Not very technical, I'm afraid but musicvid10s post gives a reason. But, as you say, what works for you (and, yes, IK do use the scopes while I'm working on colour matters.

Regards,

Richard

UKharrie wrote on 3/22/2016, 12:42 PM
- - - - If I use Movie Studio- Help-Scopes, I get "Scanner" - What are these scopes?

Perhaps you can also explain the comment about Media FX - I thought all the video-effects were on the same list, just reached differently ( As they appear to be the same list ).
On a single track - if I apply blur to one Event ( or Clip as someone suggested ), I don't think it is applied to any other Event anywhere.
To make it common to all Events ( on one Track) there are Track controls on the LH edge - putting a Blur on this will affect every Event on that track - so small amounts of "Correction" should go there, to compensate for camera differences - or lighting changes that were not noticed at the time, etc.

Conveniently I rename these tracks...Sony Camera, Panasonic Camera, etc. hope that helps, . . .. esp. as I'm easily confused.

You don't want to burn-out highlights ( other than deliberately ! ) - esp. in the camera and that's why I "underexpose" using AE Shift to minus 0.7 - this darkens the picture only slightly, makes clouds interesting and if I lose detail in the shadows I really don't care.
However, in the NLE there may be a "Correct order" to make sure no highlights are lost - but since this is only a "Command" - won't any "missing data" be retained?
I will try darkening the Media ( near black) and then copy-paste - with brightness applied - I would expect the original to return . . . . .
. . . Back again...
SMSv12
Using a Colour Still, on the timeline. . .
I converted that Event to B&W, Copy/Paste on the same track - it remained in B&W - choose Colour Corrector and in the Window I can see the B&W option is first . . . . it is necessary to move the B&W slider to Colour to restore it. Only then can the Colour Corrector be applied effectively.
So, the copied-clip hasn't lost anything ( no rendering applied) - although this wasn't exactly what OP was asking . . . it appears that even copied Media can be restored to their Original condition . . . provided you know what setting to use.
Back Again
If I choose Brightness and Contrast I can wreck the picture - Copy/Paste and apply Brightness and Contrast again - the picture is ruined - I cannot restore the picture with the second plug-in . . . . you must select the first one ( on the copied picture ), to return the duplicate picture to good health. It doesn't change the first Clip which remained burnt-out
It appears that SMS does apply the brightness and the "lost data" is not available - this is quite sensible, since the "First process" can be reversed easily . . . up to the point when it is Rendered.
If there is any need to apply similar corrections, it's probably a good idea to write the Settings into a Text-Media and when rendering use the "Loop" feature to exclude any Text beyond The End.
Alt. you can switch-off the Track with Notes, so they can be read as the movie progresses.
The only benefit in doing this is that the "Settings" won't change if you re-edit the clips, as any change will destroy the prior-settings forever if you overwrite the (dot)vf file.

Hope that helps . . . . I'd still like to know about that "Scope" . . . . FWIW.


(( Thanks vkmast - I wondered if it was only present in PRO. ))
vkmast wrote on 3/22/2016, 1:07 PM
Video scopes are a Vegas Pro feature.
"Search" musicvid10 on the topic. See also DoctorZen.

As for Media FX..."There are several methods available for adding effects to video. Video plug-ins can be added to tracks, video events, source media files (via the Project Media window), or to the entire video project." Read Adding video effects.
musicvid10 wrote on 3/22/2016, 1:48 PM
The post-leveling illustrated above was designed just for Movie Studio users -- no Vegas Pro scopes are necessary to get it right. Sorry if the graphic misled anyone.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 3/23/2016, 7:59 PM
> "These are player- and broadcast-legal output levels in Vegas. They will pass muster at PBS, arguably the most stringent US broadcaster. These are acheived in Vegas by editing in native preview space, and putting the studio levels filter dead last in the chain, on the video output bus."

We send our output to PBS all the time and have never had it rejected. We are in Season 7 of Painting and Travel with Roger and Sarah Bansemer with almost 100 shows under our belt using this method. Unlike other filters, the Levels filter also has the ability to expand which is another reason to put it first so that you start wit the correct values.

> "Placing the output levels filter early in the chain, generally results in chroma or luminance slop at the output [<16, >235], which "may" be acceptable to some stations, such those who still accept IRE chroma levels and post-level for digital streaming."

That's what the Broadcast Colors filter is for. This ensures that you didn't make any mistakes. Levels will not guarantee that you don't exceed the legal limits. Broadcast Colors will. It should be placed on the Master Video Bus output before doing your final render. This will clamp down on any illegal luminance or color.

~jr
musicvid10 wrote on 3/23/2016, 8:53 PM
If IRE chroma tolerance (Broadcast Colors) is being accepted by PBS (network or local?), and thanks for letting me know, I've got to dig up the White Paper I read wrt 0% chroma tolerance. Locally, they're known to be very stringent.

musicvid10 wrote on 3/23/2016, 9:57 PM
So here's what I get from the 2014 PBS media submission paper:"
I guess that means they may willing to do the chroma clamping for you, up to a point.
;?)


JohnnyRoy wrote on 3/24/2016, 6:14 PM
Yea, they have been changing their specs almost every year. When we first started they only allowed HDCAM Tape submission. It cost over $350 per episode just to make the darn tapes! Then eventually they allowed file based submission so we have been sending them Sony MXF HD422 50Mbps files since then. Uploading to their FTP site and so far so good.

~jr
musicvid10 wrote on 3/24/2016, 6:32 PM
If only PBS were as careful about their short-form audio submissions.
Levels are all over the map -- still!