Which project Framerate to use when rendering...

john-mollaghan wrote on 3/19/2017, 3:55 PM

I have a new camera (the Sony Z150) and I am recording using 1920*1080 @ 50 fps.

When I render out fo MP4, the render template I use is also 1920 * 1080 @ 50fps.

However, when I am editing, I switch the project framerate to be 25 fps. I find that I get much smoother playback especially on transtitions (I am not using the most powerful of computers).

The question I have...

Considering that my output render template is at 50 fps and the source footage is also 50 fps, do I need to change the project setting to 50 fps before rendering or will Vegas just figure it out and render correctly? This is something I might forget to do, so it would be handy to just leave it at 25 fps.

What is the purpose of setting the framerate in the project anyway?

Thanks,

John

 

 

 

 

Comments

john_dennis wrote on 3/19/2017, 4:13 PM

"What is the purpose of setting the framerate in the project anyway?"

The reason for setting the project frame rate is so you can accurately preview the edits that you make. If your machine can't keep up, then the preview won't be accurate, anyway. Since your output frame rate is equal to your input, I'd change the project frame rate back to 50 FPS before the final render. Obviously there are benefits gained from lowering the project frame rate while editing. If there are sections where your 25 fps project frame rate may not be giving you an accurate depiction of the final output, you could change the project frame rate to 50 fps and use dynamic ram preview.  

"I have a new camera (the Sony Z150)"

Congratulations!

"This is something I might forget to do..."

Don't forget. That's why you're making the big bucks.

Last changed by john_dennis on 3/19/2017, 4:18 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

john-mollaghan wrote on 3/19/2017, 4:19 PM

Thanks John Dennis,

The question I have is, will the final output be different I just leave the project framerate at 25 fps?

I am happy with the way it previews using 25 fps. What benefit is there to switching the framerate to 50 fps before rendering? does the project framerate affect the render phase?

Thanks

 

john_dennis wrote on 3/19/2017, 4:28 PM

With the project frame rate set to 25 fps you can only resolve splits and the edges of media to every other frame of your source media. It's not frame accurate editing. 

Last changed by john_dennis on 3/19/2017, 4:29 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

john-mollaghan wrote on 3/19/2017, 4:40 PM

I understand that, but when it comes to rendering does the project framerate make any difference?

Thanks

OldSmoke wrote on 3/19/2017, 4:55 PM

It may when resampling is on.

Have you tried converting your footage with Catalyst Browse to XAVC-I? That should play better then the footage straight from the Z150.

Last changed by OldSmoke on 3/19/2017, 4:56 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Marco. wrote on 3/19/2017, 5:40 PM

Project frame rate does not influence rendering. You could set your project frame rate to even 0.5 fps, while your media files and your render settings are 50p, your final output will be fine and clear 50p.
Same is for project frame size, field order and pixel aspect ratio which all is for setting the preview.

Some of these settings affect generated media, though.

 

john_dennis wrote on 3/19/2017, 8:34 PM

Thanks Marco.

I know I've looked at the effects of project frame rate on the granularity of timeline selection and editing in the past, but this time I decided to record my observations.

One can see frame blending when resample is set to "Smart Resample". With "Disable Resample" and the project frame rate set to half the media frame rate, every other frame is selectable when single stepping through the timeline.Hope someone finds this as entertaining as I do. I'm easily entertained...

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

NickHope wrote on 3/19/2017, 10:43 PM

@John D, To demonstrate the answer to John M's question, it would be useful if you left the project frame rate at 25p with that media set to "Smart Resample", render to 50p, bring back the rendered file to a 50p timeline, and see if it steps cleanly frame-by-frame through the numbers. Could even throw and extreme resize in there for fun too.

I'd do it myself but you've already gone to the effort of making the media and I know how much you love a good demo video ;)

NickHope wrote on 3/19/2017, 10:46 PM

@john-mollaghan It would be worth you looking through this post for tips on improving timeline preview. Something in there may make enough difference that you can leave your project at 50p. https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/faq-how-can-i-make-my-video-preview-play-smoothly-in-vegas-pro--104624/

john-mollaghan wrote on 3/20/2017, 5:20 AM

Thanks to you all for the responses, very helpful.

Marco. wrote on 3/20/2017, 5:22 AM

John_dennis, what we see in your screen recording is how it affects the preview. If you then render to 50p there will not be any frame blending.

In the moment you start rendering the project properties will be set to the render settings (in this case back to 50 fps).

john_dennis wrote on 3/20/2017, 10:42 AM

Nick is a harsh task manager.

Marco, I've incorporated your comments into this EPIC.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

NickHope wrote on 3/20/2017, 9:40 PM

Thank you John! Now if you could just repeat the whole thing at 29.97/59.94 so we can be sure.... 😉

By the way it's a little curious that the even numbers are brighter than the odd numbers (from 01:25). You'd think they'd be equal brightness.

john_dennis wrote on 3/20/2017, 11:30 PM

It is curious.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

OldSmoke wrote on 3/21/2017, 10:44 AM

What I am missing is a render with smart resample on; because that will mess it up.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Marco. wrote on 3/21/2017, 10:51 AM

It won't because there is nothing to be resampled in this case.

Footage and rendering share same fps. Rendering won't adopt to project settings, vice versa project settings will automatically adopt to render settings.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/21/2017, 2:05 PM

It won't because there is nothing to be resampled in this case.

Footage and rendering share same fps. Rendering won't adopt to project settings, vice versa project settings will automatically adopt to render settings.


That is not what I am overserving. First, don't use an image sequence. Render John's image sequence to a 50p file, insert it into a 25p project, set smart resample to on and render it to 50p; let me know what you see.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

john_dennis wrote on 3/21/2017, 3:31 PM

"First, don't use an image sequence."

I use image sequences to generate media at different frame rates with no artifacts. In the following demo, the source is a 50p .mp4 rendered from an image sequence in a 50p project as you requested.

"Render John's image sequence to a 50p file

Insert it into a 25p project

Set smart resample to "on" 

Render it to 50p

Let me know what you see."

You bring up a good question though. What affects the properties of an image sequence?

The image sequence is created at the project properties at the time it is created and its properties don't change when the project properties change. An image sequence created after the project properties change will adapt the changed project properties. 

 

Last changed by john_dennis on 3/21/2017, 4:52 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

My main system:
Motherboard: Asus X99-AII
CPU: Intel i7-6850K
GPU: Sapphire Radeon RX480-8GB
RAM: Corsair Dominator (4 x 4 GB) DDR4 2400
Disk O/S & Programs: Intel SSD 750 (400 GB)
Disk Active Projects: 1TB & 2TB WD BLACK SN750 NVMe Internal PCI Express 3.0 x4 Solid State Drives
Disk Other: WD Ultrastar/Hitachi Hard Drives: WDBBUR0080BNC-WRSN, HGST HUH728080ALE600, 724040ALE640, HDS3020BLA642
Case: LIAN LI PC-90 Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Case
CPU cooling: Corsair Hydro series H115i
Power supply: SeaSonic SS-750KM3 750W 80 PLUS GOLD Certified Full Modular Active PFC Power Supply
Drive Bay: Kingwin KF-256-BK 2.5" and 3.5" Trayless Hot Swap Rack with USB 3
Sound card: Crystal Sound 3 on motherboard. Recording done on another system.
Primary Monitor: Asus ProArt PA248q (24" 1920 x 1200)
O/S: Windows 10 Pro 22H2, Build 19045.2130

Camera: Sony RX10 Model IV

https://www.youtube.com/user/thedennischannel

Marco. wrote on 3/21/2017, 7:47 PM

"Render John's image sequence to a 50p file, insert it into a 25p project, set smart resample to on and render it to 50p; let me know what you see."

That done I see a video with clear 50p, frame by frame, without any frame blending.

At a first glance I did hesitate, too, because of the use of an image sequence instead of using a regular video file. But I tested it with an own image sequence. It's what john_dennis said, project properties will set the image sequence's frame rate at the moment you generate the sequence. Once done it will keep the frame rate and there no difference between using a video clip.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/22/2017, 10:21 AM

Ok, I know what went wrong on my side. I had "Allow source to adjust frame rate" enabled in the render template, the rendered file was 30p and not 60p. However, if you render the 60p project with a 60p source to 30p with smart resample enabled Vegas will do a frame blend/interpolation of sorts.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)