I'm afraid I am going to have to contradict New Hope quite a bit here. Setting the Dianorm levels lower will probably actually make the playback of audio louder.

By setting the preprocessing DRC settings to none, you are actually potentially introducing a serious issue on certain setups, especially if you already have issues with levels being too high. None of these settings change the actual encoded audio, they just change the tags that tell the player how to decode it in certain circumstances. Setting the DRC RF Mode is very important in this case as there could be overmodulation on systems which utilize RF components.

I think what you need to do is check what pan type you are mixing in. Go to each channel and right click of on the pan mixer and change the pan type to "Balance centre (0db centre)". This may resolve your issues. If not, you could try simply pulling each of the master track faders down a bit and see what happens.

The other possibility is that your master fader is turned relatively low, so when you listen to your mix on a disc, even through the same system it will seem much louder.

"I have been keeping the levels just under 0 db without ever going into the red. "

People seem to assume that near 0db is where you're supposed to be.... and this would be true if you were recording music on a Stereo track. But if you do this on a 5.1 track.... you automatically KILL your dynamic range.

0db simply happens to the MAXIMUM setting that you can do without clipping, but if you set all your tracks at 0 then there is no room to increase gain during an explosion (for example) and everything comes out at roughly the same power level.

Depending on what kind of dynamics I'm looking for, I'll keep normal dailog and background tracks as low as -15db, which of course gives me 15db of breathing room for things like explosions

One of the most difficult things in 5.1 processing is getting the levels correct.... I've been doing it for quite some time now and it's STILL very much trial and error with every track I do. I also find that even though I have an expensive audio set up on my machine, computers in general are lousy playback devices for 5.1 testing.I have my system set up so that I can run 5.1 test strips to my home audio system for authentic playback...... Suggest you do the same.

I also suggest that you spend a couple of days running test strip through the Pro ac3 encoder with different settings to find the ones you like. There are a WEALTH of settings here and each one can make a pretty BIG difference. The pro encoder can adjust the dynamics for you if you use it right (which is great), but the problem is that you can't test the dynamics out, prior to encoding. So I tend to adjust for the flattest, least change as possible in the encoder and control the dynamics (and other things) directly on the time line so I can see what I'm getting even prior to the encode.

One other thing... (which I find annoying).... don't forget that Vegas automatically inserts three track filters in each audio track (noise gate, EQ, and compression). The first thing I do when loading a track is KILL these filters. I'll insert these later if I want to

Blink,
"One other thing... (which I find annoying).... don't forget that Vegas automatically inserts three track filters in each audio track (noise gate, EQ, and compression). The first thing I do when loading a track is KILL these filters. I'll insert these later if I want to"

To rid yourself of having to remove the audio filters every time:
1) Insert a new audio track
2) remove the unwanted filters
3) Right click on track header
4) select "Set default track properties"

-Dan

Good point.... never thought of that .... thanks!

I'm afraid I am going to have to contradict New Hope quite a bit here. Setting the Dianorm levels lower will probably actually make the playback of audio louder.
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Yes it will.

From Dolby Labs:
"To prevent these apparent loudness differences from becoming bothersome when switching between programs—thus causing the listener to readjust the volume control—Dolby Digital has incorporated a "dialog normalization" feature to allow the producers to set the appropriate reproduction level to a known average level reference. This feature is implemented in Dolby Digital encoders and consumer decoders."


Since the quietest sounds amidst the grenade launchers and Jurrasic growls are the movie dialog, Dolby Labs have set the encoding standards to a dialog normalization level of -31db. The Dolby Digital encoder sends a control word called a dialnorm to the decoder to adjust playback level. It acts like an automatic volume control but only through attenuation (lowering). For full volume with no attenuation the dialog normalization value is -31db (in other words an "average" of -31db) which the dialnorm in the encoder leaves alone when it encodes AC-3. This allows the other levels in the program to be adjusted appropriately relative to the dialog, but striclty through attenuation. Thus the Vegas AC3 default setting of -27db is already telling the encoder that the average dialog is 4db higher than the -31db reference and as a result the dialnorm will reduce the levels across the board by 4 db. Set it to -20db and it will reduce it by 11db. That's why lowering the number will do the reverse of what one would think would happen at first glance.
So If you want to raise the overall volume of the encode set dialog norm to -31db. To lower it raise it, ie: -30, -29, -28, etc.
You should also set the line mode profile under dynamic range control to "none" so that the dynamic range isn't compressed especially if there is music, but only if you want to increase the loudness.

John

Do those default settings for the plugins actually alter the audio at all? I thought they were set to neutral values.

"By setting the preprocessing DRC settings to none, you are actually potentially introducing a serious issue on certain setups, especially if you already have issues with levels being too high."

Robert W I'm afraid I'll disagree with you on this statement. First his levels aren't to high they are too loud... a product of being compressed by the DRC in the replay chain. Consider TV Commercials which sound louder than program material. The actual peak levels on both are the same but compression and limiting during audio post production on the commercials makes the average level much higher and the commercials sound louder. Setting DRC on in the encoder can have the same effect on the replay chain of the DVD player.

The fact is that the DRC functions were included in the Dolby Digital encoder for broadcast streams to allow broadcasters to add dynamic range control into the encode of discreet signals or Dolby E into Dolby Digital as they go to air. That is they will trigger DRC at the viewers decoder, set top box etc, when the broadcast is received. They should generally not be set on for an encode to DVD.

In the original post levels were indicated as being correct and not over modulated. My experience with the DRC settings in the Dolby Digital encoder is that will will completely change the dynamic range of a mix.

"Setting the DRC RF Mode is very important in this case as there could be overmodulation on systems which utilize RF components."

Almost no one uses RF mode as the method of sending the audio stream out of a DVD player to an amp and speakers or television with DVDs these days. In fact most domestic DVD players don't offer an RF output only line level. The introduction of DRC on the line output has a similar effect. It's about the equivalent of using AGC when recording. Sure there's a safety factor in avoiding overmodulation but if your levels are correct in the first place, as the original post indicated they were, then DRC should NOT be necessary and will certainly do things to the dynamic range that weren't intended in the mix.

I admit my info on dial norm was reversed and lowering the level will make the signal louder. My apologies for this error.

By the way I used Vegas 7 to mix 30 minute short feature film in a Dolby 5.1. I encoded it with Vegas as an AC-3 and the DVD I authored with DVD Architect 4 was used for entry in the Australian Screen Sound Guild (the local professional audio guild ) awards in 2007. It won the Best Achievement in Sound for a Short film. I can assure you that both Line mode and RF mode DRC were set to 'None' during the encode.

New Hope Media

John, I am a music purist, but even i would recommend against setting the DRC line mode to none. It does have a music mode light mode. It is only tags and a lot of players have the ability to ignore the tags, and some will do so automatically depending what kind of output is in use. I would be suprised if there are many players that apply DRC settings across a digital output, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: I think I shall retract that. I was fairly sure I had a good reason for applying the DRC line mode rather than leave is disable,d but now I'm not sure I can recall what it is. If it truly is outputting via line mode only with that setting and you have a music programme with a carefully prepared mix, maybe leaving the line mode disabled would be beneficial to keep control on how the view hears you mix. I will have to see if I can remember why I made the opposite decision earlier when setting my presets.

"Do those default settings for the plugins actually alter the audio at all? I thought they were set to neutral values."

The Noise gate, Equalisation and Compression that is normally part of every audio channel in Vegas are set to null positions as a default. This means that, although they are there in your tracks they aren't active until you choose to set their parameters on. They won't have any effect on your tracks unless you do.

As far as the Preprocessing DRC settings are concerned and off the top of my head, and without looking at the encoder as I'm currently posting from my Mac, they are normally set 'ON' to "Film Standard Compression"

New Hope Media

John, I am a music purist, but even i would recommend against setting the DRC line mode to none. It does have a music mode light mode. It is only tags and a lot of players have the ability to ignore the tags, and some will do so automatically depending what kind of output is in use. I would be suprised if there are many players that apply DRC settings across a digital output, but I could be wrong.
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It varies from player to player and encode to encode, but most music purists I know don't like AC3 audio very much. They seem to like PCM audio much better.

John

"I would be suprised if there are many players that apply DRC settings across a digital output, but I could be wrong. "

The DRC in the Dolby Digital (AC-3) encoder is set to on and will apply compression on the digital output as well quite often even if the players settings have been set to ignore the tags.

The problem can simply be that you may set those tags OFF on the DVD player but then pass the signal as a digital bitstream to your amp and it flags and applies the DRC itself during the decode.

Many end users would think..."well I've turned of the DRC on the player so it's OK" but not consider that the amp is where the decode is happening and if it isn't set to ignore the flags it will apply DRC.

New Hope Media

Whoops, didn't mean to edit my response after so many people replied subsequently. However, I think I am going to dig out the AC3 documentation again. I am sure there is a salient issue here somewhere...

Also, I was referring to the neutral pass through of the default audio track fx. I just had a look at them and they seem to all be set to make no difference to the track as default. That is no guarantee that they are not of course, and I would rather that they were not there and and my audio was not passing through them.

I could dig out my Dolby Digital Course notes from the Dolby Broadcast and Professional training course I attended in 2001 if you like.... might have helped me remember the correct explanation on Dial Norm if I had....

On the other hand I think I'll dig out a single malt whiskey.... sounds like a much better idea and it is midnight here...

New Hope Media

Thank you for all of the replies.

As this is my first 5.1 project it is probably a combination of all that has been said.

I'm going to go over my timeline again. There is one thing that seems to be a contradition in what is being said, and that is should all of my levels be at 0db vs having dialog at -15db. When I was doing my editing I was under the impressiong that it should all be at 0, but after hearing the actrual results on my HT and reading more about it I was starting to think that there should be a difference between the dialog say at -15db and the explosion at 0db. and the music somewhere inbetween. Can all the levels be at 0db and still have a difference in how loud it will be in the final product?

Kelvin,
I'm sorry this turned into an extrapolated debate over minor issues that really have nothing to do with your question or a solution.

For a really good, simple starting point, see my answer to your same question in the Audio forum:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=611670&Replies=3

**Can all the levels be at 0db and still have a difference in how loud it will be in the final product?**

We're talking about the meters here, not the volume sliders. Your loudest peaks must be kept below 0dBFS (no red peaks), with average program material reading anywhere between that and approximately -24dBFS.

If, on the Surround Master meters in the Vegas timeline, you carefully kept your peaks under OdBFS, and you can hear the dynamic range you want, rendering to the AC-3 Studio DVD template with AGC off should work just fine for you. I just completed a live production recording with 28 audio feeds mixed to 5.1 in Vegas, and the results using the AC-3 Studio template are fabulous!

As for this convoluted debate over DRC, I hope the others will feel compelled to continue it elsewhere . . .

The DRC debate is relevant as it's function is confusing issue and it does have an impact on the apparent levels at playback.

However I would stress again, it is worth checking the pan mode as if it is set to "Add Channels (0db centre)" it could be making everything a lot louder than it should be.

**The DRC debate is relevant as it's function is confusing issue and it does have an impact on the apparent levels at playback.**

The only "relevance" to this thread is that he shouldn't be using it.

Well, that is incorrect. If he is having apparent levels issues DRC could be relevant and it may help to have it set. I think it is occasionally missed that compression actually makes things quieter rather than louder. Setting a DRC profile may moderate the peaks and mitigate the issue to some extent.

Still, I think it is probably caused by a more fundamental issue. Surround mixing is a tricky business outside of a dedicate studio, and even inside one then it can still hard to work out what is going on with your levels.

I would suggest testing a commercial DVD in the computer setup to see just where the machine's levels are. If it sounds quiet compared to the Vegas mixdown then you know that your mix is too loud. I would myself just have a look and see what happens if you pull a few dbs out of the master channels. That might not be the sonically best way of dealing with it, but it may help you establish exactly what is going on.

There is another thing to be wary of if you have mixed in a third party surround studio. There two calibrations for surround mixing and playback, one for domestic home theatre and one for full blown theatrical presentations. You need to be aware of which setup you have mixed in as the theatrical setup adds 3db to each of the rear channels. There is a clause in the Dolby Pro encoder that removed this 3db bias at mixdown.

This is a switchable calibration so if you are not aware of how it was setup at mixdown, you may have to do some investigating to double check it how it the studio was set up (as I found myself doing a few months ago).

I checked all of my pan types and all except one is balanced 0 db center. The other one is balanced -3 db center for a P51 fly over.

Has anyone used the film type pan. I tried it but it kind of muted everything, and I didn't like how it put everything into the center speaker, music specifically.

From my understanding of DRC it is a meta tag that a user could impliment on their own system. Perhaps I'm wrong on that but anyway it proably is not need in my project. I didn't change any of the setting when I rendered it so it would have been all of the defaults.

Question on the meter levels. On my project I have a leader prior to the movie with my logo. The music is loud on this too. I would think that if it was only music and the dialnorm is set to -27db that it wouldn't be.

"There is one thing that seems to be a contradition in what is being said, and that is should all of my levels be at 0db vs having dialog at -15db. When I was doing my editing I was under the impressiong that it should all be at 0,"

It depends very much on your workflow. As I said before, the pro encoder is capable of adjusting and balancing levels IF YOU USE IT RIGHT. But the problem I have found with it is that you can't preview (or pre-hear in this case) your final output. This is further complicated by the fact that it's not the easiest thing in the world to re-import a AC3 track and throw it on the T/L for a look-see. ( I should point out that I have Adobe Audition however which CAN import a AC3 track for viewing.... and it comes in VERY handy.... well worth the cost if you plan on getting heavy into AC3). For these reasons I have become accustomed to working as much on a WYSIWYG basis as I can (What You See Is What You Get). I will set pro encoder for the flattest, least changing settings, and in turn handle all levels on the time line. I should also point out that the Studio encoder is great for this too. It's a relatively simple encoder that pretty much encodes what it sees as it sees it.

I have found that there is much LESS guesswork in this workflow and you end up getting what you expected and planned on. Leaving it all to the pro encoder without some means of pre-hearing before the final encode (I find anyway) is a lot like pinning your hopes and dreams on a lottery ticket.

I just played a commercial dvd in my computer system but I'm not able to compare apples to apples though for Vegas monitoring. My PowerDVD player only allows me to use SPDIF and my Vegas uses the six channel input to my reciever. The volume was equal comparing the Vegas with PowerDVD playing Kelly's Heroes and my timeline. All though not the same path of getting there. When I tried changing the settings for PowerDVD, it didn't let me and wanted me to buy the upgade.

So to compare apples to apples I played ing my dvd using PwrDVD and it was extremely loud on my computer system. I didn't go past my leader it was so loud.

Like a team of crafty lawyers, Digital Dolby has always forced you to learn their language, which they go out of their way to change normal terms into confusing, useless dialogue.
In a couple of years, when we are all switched over to BD discs, we should ditch Digital Dolby into the dumpster, where they belong, and only use 24 bit waves and go back to a normal language. We shouldn't waste our time and money on their BS.

They've ruined all my analog tapes, over the years, because I bought into their hype.
We should tar & feather them and send Dolby on their way. They are useless and have found a way to make a buck off of all of us. Way too many bucks.