Yes, it does play better locally using AVS player. Just did a comparison from local to Vimeo. So yes, something is effecting the quality - browser player/ internet.

Do you think reducing the data rate of the render would help? Maybe i'm pushing the limit with Vimeo. Thanks for looking at it Jerry.

Paul.

"Do you think reducing the data rate of the render would help? Maybe i'm pushing the limit with Vimeo"I actively experimented on this about a year ago and, unfortunately, the only "solution" I could come up with was slower pans. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the problem seems to be improving as time goes on. I'm attributing this to Flash Player upgrades, but I could be wrong.

...Jerry

I'm not seeing any stuttering but I'm at work and have a very fast connection.
I do agree with Jerry on slowing down the speed of your pans & tilts.
Most of them felt too fast in comparison to the slow pace of the music.

Mike

Well that saves me the trouble of trying tests at lower rates. I can see you have covered this in detail already! Thanks for pointing me to those threads.

So i am putting this down to web players (flash) at least i now know its not my fault.

Amazing, this is one of the first videos i have done that uses pans and tilts. Normally, I nearly always lock off and cut images that way. Explains why i have never seen this issue before i guess.

cheers
Paul.

Mike, i am wondering which browser you are viewing on. Firefox here with a fast 20M connection and its stuttering here on pans and tilts. Hm, could it be PC speed related? Just on duo core laptop here.

Paul

Paul, I'm on Firefox as well.
speedtest.net reported a download speed of 70Mbps.

Mike

that's fast Mike! Virgin fiber optic cable here, thought that was fast.

Well its a puzzle, same browser and both good internet connections.
PC speed, video graphics limits, flash version perhaps, but something is messing with the quality of the video in the browser.

My next move it to test this on a faster machine not just the laptop.

Paul.

I doubt that the problem is lack of bandwidth as I can wait for the video to download completely, then play and I still see the problem.

...Jerry

Now tested this on a i7 920. Its just the same to my eyes. So now not convinced this is PC speed related either. Also tried IE9, just the same.

Never mind, i may try uploading to another provider (like youtube for starters) and see if anything improves. Its not such a big deal like i said, client is happy. It was really for my own quality standards.

Slower pans... hmm, i thought they were slow.. feels good to me anyway. But the local file plays smooth enough. Thanks for input! always open to critique especially on my first corp job. Would have liked more lighting, time, camera angles....etc you know, its never enough. Good fun though.

Paul.

Hi Paul, I enjoyed watching the video :)
Be interesting to see if this workflow helps with the stuttering:
http://www.bubblevision.com/underwater-video/Vegas-YouTube-Vimeo.htm
[I haven't tried it myself yet - but was just reading it & recalled your post/video.]
Couple things I noticed:
1. The onscreen fonts - would have been nice to match them to style of shop (bill board, products text), etc, maybe a light script font.
2. Would have been nice to 'glam' up the young lady/entrepreneur using lighting a bit more. She seemed a bit far away - I was wondering if it was perspective created by the arrangement on the left (which was interesting in itself).
Anyway - congrats - I was impressed.
Simes

I wrote that guide, and I don't think anything in it would affect how smoothly the video plays after it gets to Vimeo or YouTube, who re-encode it with their own settings. It just shows another way of deinterlacing, resizing and encoding H.264.

Paul, another option would be to experiment with self-hosting, so you have control of the encoding parameters. In that case my guide would be relevant, and you should also read this thread. But having said that, you could lose a lot of time learning and testing and still have no real benefit. Quite a lot of work has been done on this shear/stutter problem by Amendegw and others and it seems to be an Adobe Flash Player problem that is difficult to control.

Silverlight perhaps???

"Silverlight perhaps???"If you go to my test page, http://www.jazzythedog.com/testing/eagles.aspxFast Pan Stutter Problem[/link], I even tested Silverlight, both with h.264 & wmv source. Still no joy.

I guess that would negate the Flash Player theory. Maybe browser integration with whatever video player.

So... i'm at wits end on this one. I'd love to hear a solution.

...Jerry

I'm having great difficulty down here getting past the first tilt up!
I'm rather suspecting there's something wrong with the encoding itself. I've had several issues with the MC encoder and now always use the Sony AVC encoder.
When I say "issues" with MC, I mean Vegas itself baulked at handling the file.

Bob.

Jerry, i tested your Fast Pan Stutter link, that proved useful.
Testing all the formats on your site (with the exception of silverlight, i didn't install it), they all stutter at my end. Exactly in the same way my video does - it looks identical. But, i downloaded your MP4 and WMV file locally and they play totally smooth with both Windows Media Player and AVS.. So there really is something going on once its gets either converted to flash or the browser itself is messing with the delivery. Hard to say which.

Fonts and better lighting - i fully agree. Although the billboard above the shop is not her logo, its the old sign so i could not use that as a reference. All i did was look at her own logo and do a quick match - its not that close - my bad.
Lighting, defo! I wanted to take 3 lights but i only had one Z96 quad panel. The shop was a bit dark inside so i needed all my white light to get the shot. But would have loved to have a blue gel at the side or a back rim light. Maybe with orange compliment at the other side. So yes, could have been more creative! Lack of kit.

I will do more testing after this job, including a re-render using Sony AVC rather than MC to see if that helps too. Self hosting, yes, can try that also.
Right, off to continue shooting part 2...

And as always, thanks.

Paul.

Jerry, have you done any stutter tests with webm videos?

YouTube creates webm versions and I can download them from keepvid.com and play them locally in VLC, and they don't look too bad. Last time I looked, the codecs weren't really around to render & wrap good quality webm via Vegas, but I'm wondering if webm might not have the stutter problem.

Just thinking out loud. Not really a solution to Paul's current problem.

"Jerry, have you done any stutter tests with webm videos?"Here's a WebM test: EaglesWebM.aspx

If I recall, WebM is only viewable via the Chrome browser (but I haven't kept up with the technology recently).

This does not seem to stutter as much, but is it WebM or Chrome or some other obscure reason?

...Jerry

As near as I can tell folks here and in other forums have been complaining about stuttering video in pans since at least 2011. I would have thought YouTube and Vimeo video players would have improved on this by now, but alas, I am still having the problem with some footage I've just uploaded to both YouTube and Vimeo. As have others, I have tried a number of different encoding techniques/bit rates but am not able to get smooth playback. If I play it locally it is, of course, acceptably smooth.

So my question: is anyone aware of any breakthrough techniques in the 15 months since amendegw's last post?

/jerry

It's not just stuttering on this video, it's all videos. It's always been my theory of two things:
1) encoding somewhere isn't as good as it should be (on your end or the delivery end).
2) the shutter speed is to high during acquisition so you're not getting a slight blur like you would on film.

What it *COULD* be (because everybody reports this apparently?) in the GPU drivers & hardware. Back in 2005 there was lots of reports of issues with 3D accelerated computer games stuttering, in the same way. You would really notice it if you could lock the FPS to a specific setting, there would be an occasional frame jump or tear that shouldn't be there, so it wouldn't be smooth. I went to Dallas that August and talked to some others about it, so we did some tests. It happened on DirectX games for Windows and OpenGL games on Windows, Linux or Mac. We narrowed it down to hardware/drivers released ~2004 & later. If you ran a game on hardware older then that it did NOT happen, but it happened with all brands of GPU's ~that date. It still happens. The ONLY theory we could come up with was that data wasn't being moved fast enough from one place to another and causing this issue. The issue still exists today and the only solution that works is adding a blur (playing extra frames helped too).

This may be the same thing: data can't be decoded fast enough. Yes, hardware is super-fast compared to almost a decade ago (when it started to be noticed), but before ~2004ish most games AND videos on computers didn't just play at a set speed, they also pumped out data as fast as the computer & software would allow. So in 2000 when playing a video on the computer you'd be playing it back at 30fps but the computer might be putting out 36fps, 6 duplicates somewhere in there. Now there's more to decode so a 30fps video isn't just 30fps, you lock the interlacing, captions, multiple audio channels, etc. It's no longer a "play as fast as possible and duplicate some extra frames", it's "use the minimal amount of resources as possible."

Your data rate means little because Vimeo re-encodes your video anyway. I don't see the stuttering but I am on a 75Mbps FIOS connection.

For better web delivery, always avoid pans and tilts (or likewise lots of activity in the background). Lock down your tripod and step away from the camera. When you move the camera, you are forcing the codec on both ends to work extra hard because most of the frames are changing a lot.

>Your data rate means little because Vimeo re-encodes your video anyway. I don't see the stuttering but I am on a 75Mbps FIOS connection.

So it seems Steve. But the part I don't understand is if you let the stream completely cache on your PC it still stutters. Why would this be if the original video plays smooth as silk on the same pc?

The reason I am so interested in this is I do model home tours that require a lot of pans and tilts, AND have to be on the web. I do see some YouTube videos that have fast AND smooth pans. I just want to know how they do that.

In my case, I currently shoot 1080p30 at 1/60 shutter speed for a 180 degree shutter angle. I render to DVXND and then downsize/render 4Mbps MP4 using Handbrake. I've also tried going to 1080p30 MPG2 straight from Vegas and various other combinations but there no real difference between them as far as stutter is concerned.

I'm pretty sure this is a browser issue. Here's a test anyone can do. Grab a clip with a moderately fast pan. Render to .mp4 (suggest Handbrake). Open it in your local player (VLC, WMP, Quicktime Player, whatever). Should pan smooth as glass. Now, right click on the local file and Open it in your browser. On my computer, it stutters badly.

Need a video to test with? Here's the one I used: Eagles-640x360-400kbps.zip

Now, I realize this is a data point of one, so I'd be interested to hear from others.

...Jerry

Jerry, now why didn't I think of that? I just tested my local Handbrake mp4 render in the browser and it has stutter. Plays smooth in other players. I'll be out for the day but look forward to hearing other insights when I return later this evening.

/jerry