4eyes said: Mac's are Linux Based Computers

Incorrect. The core of Apple's Mac OS X (and its predecessor NextStep) is Darwin, which contains a lot of BSD code, especially FreeBSD 5 code. (Wiki link)

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And there is a whole Unix terminal available on every OS X machine, with all the familiar commands. Great for doing quick communications testing etc., without having to buy specialized apps.

Long live Unix!

I met a programmer friend yesterday, and noticed that he had Linux on his notebook computer. This somewhat surprised me, because he is not developing software for Linux per se.

He said he needed a notebook for programming on the go, and initially it came with Vista, so he used Vista for his coding and compilation of very complex comms software. Then he got pissed off because the machine was so slow.

Advised that the problem was primarily Vista's very poor disk I/O performance, he got a new [Dell] notebook with factory-installed Linux.

Result: his compiles went 8 times faster, which resulted in massive time savings for him due to the very large number of modules that he has to recompile and link each time.

He prefers BSD to Linux, but his company (a large, famous outfit) has as a policy to only allow factory-installed OSes on notebooks.

Their programmers are now tossing out Vista everywhere they can, due to its poor performance, but they are worried about the future...

I really expect Windows 7 will be OK though.

(Although there is nothing a large enough "apparat" can't destroy; and many parts of Microsoft have already taken on a certain resemblance to the bureaucracy of the old Soviet Union.)

Likewise, it's the main reason I still run Windows.

If it runs on Ubuntu under Wine, then it will run on Mac OS under Darwine. Forget bootcamp, and Leopard for that matter! I'm digging up my copy of Vegas V5! I'll let you know when I get it working on my MBP.

Well, I've installed Wine on my MBP under Mac OS, with no problems. Dot Net 1.1 will not install, but .Net 2.0 installed very smoothly. I've also installed mono (an open source alternative to .net) to see if I can get Vegas 5 to use mono and fill in the gaps.

Wine Update with .NET Improvements
April 4th, 2008

http://www.winehq.org/?announce=0.9.59

What's new in this release?

* Improved support for the .NET framework.
* Better services handling through a separate services.exe process.
* Support for ATI fragment shader.
* Better support for http proxies.
* Window management fixes.
* Pre-compiled fonts are now available in the source tree. Lots of bug fixes.

http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=5120 for more on these efforts.

Wine build 0.9.53 already had silver support for Vegas 5. No one has tested (or reported their testing of) build 0.9.59 with Vegas; it may have 'regressed'. I've just installed Vegas 5 on Mac OS 10.4.11 under Wine 0.9.53, and am going to activate it tonight. Again, I've installed mono (Novell's open source .net alternative) and will try running Vegas via mono as well. Then I'll try build 0.9.59 to see how Vegas fares under the latest fixes.

So what happened, Idiot Savant?

Update: I gave up on Wine, and installed VirtualBox and a standalone copy of Windows XP on my Ubuntu partition instead. After some time spent on configuring and a few initial crashes, everything (including Vegas 8.0b ) now seems to work perfectly.

The problem with Wine is that it's sort of a halfway measure: not quite a virtual machine, not quite Linux-native software. In my experience, these compromises didn't work well. Instead of the best of both worlds, I got the worst of both worlds. Plus, using Wine requires you to install so much Microsoft infrastructure (DotNetFX, MS Internet Explorer), that you don't really gain much over simply installing a complete copy of Windows inside a Virtual Machine. I wish the Wine developers luck, but I think they've got an uphill battle.

One think I like about Virtual Box is that it creates a dynamic dummy "partition" for the Windows XP installation. When XP is running, VirtualBox gives the OS a 5 gb dummy "hard disk" to work with, but when XP is not running, this space is available to Ubuntu. So, for me, anyway, this seems like a more viable solution.

Now if VirtualBox just offered a MacOS virtual machine!

It's up, running, importing video (avi only so far), stills, and audio (wav only as of right now). I have successfully exported SD res material, and HD res material from the timeline, including multiple layers of audio, generated media (credit rolls, timecode), and FX (Movie Looks and Movie Looks HD both work like a charm). The one major issue I'm having is the video preview. I will post additional screengrabs after NAB. Or you I can show you if you're there(off the floor, of course). The other thing that's been a little irritating is that the windows seem to redraw themselves poorly under the 'windows xp' settings of Darwine, and were working better in Win2k mode. I'll revert back. I'll be hosting the videos I exported online after NAB as well. I should mention that I did the DOCK flip trick to get the preview window on top, so you ARE looking at V5, it's just been customized.

I'm going to attempt installing the rest of the SCS suite tonight.

The only supported version of the .NET framework under Wine is 2.0, and you don't need internet exploder to install it. Up till V7 the only requirement was .NET 2.0, and only for scripting at that. VidCap has launched, and all of the basic functions of Vegas are working just as they always have. I have not needed to replace or install so much as a single alternate dll to get things working as they are now, so I have no idea why things were so difficult for you, Brian. If VirtualBox works for you, then that's a step in the right direction; if you must have windows, keep it under the lock and key of a VM.

Enlighten me... why would anyone want to bother to run Vegas under Linux?Linux is fine for perhaps running a server, but for total compatibility with the "Wintel" platform requires an Intel processor running Windows. There just isn't much, if any, native professional-grade software for Linux and running a Windows app under an emulator can't possibly be as fast or compatible as just using Windows in the first place.

John,

You make some great points. I've tried NLEs on Linux before and it's not a pretty sight. I use UbuntuStudio for low-latency audio work and plain Ubuntu for my third system at work. I can use Evolution for e-mail and other apps but it is not an integral part of my work. We also use Linux on several servers. I say all that so people understand I am NOT anti-Linux. What I am is in favor of using the best tool for any given job. Right now Windows XP (not Vista or Linux or Mac) is what works best for me when doing virtually everything - including video editing. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to use an emulator and try to MAKE something work that was never intended to work on that platform. If Vegas is not working well on your Windows XP system then there might be some other issues. That's all for now.

I'm not actually running Vegas on Linux, I'm running it on Mac OS. What can I say, I like Keynote a lot better than PowerPoint :)

"Enlighten me..."
Gladly. Linux workstations are at the base of every major feature filmmaking operation. Linux workstations are at the base of most mission-critical data operations. Linux workstations are the backbone of the interwebz, and open-source *nix operations (like NeXT, and BeOS) are the projects that fuel most new technology that both Microsoft and Apple claim to have invented.

"why would anyone want to bother to run Vegas under Linux?"
The real question is what Linux user WOULDN'T want a program as good as Vegas running on their system?

"There just isn't much, if any, native professional-grade software for Linux"
I have to correct you there, John. Maya, Shake, Nuke, Inferno, Smoke, Flame, Flint, Combustion, Cinepaint, the list goes on. They all run on Linux and yes, all of these apps are being used on your favorite feature films (King Kong, Lord of the Rings, etc) as well as some indie films you'll never hear of, and plenty of TV shows. BTW, they often cost several times more than Vegas. They are as professional grade as any software can be.

"running a Windows app under an emulator can't possibly be as fast or compatible as just using Windows in the first place."
It definitely seems reasonable to think that. Google has a 'Linux Native' version of Google Earth. But you know what? It's actually just the windows version running under Wine. The truth is that sometimes the open source API's that Wine uses (because, technically Wine Is Not an Emulator) run windows applications FASTER than windows, any version of it. As far as being more compatible, well, of course it's not; SCS didn't design its software to run natively on Linux, they designed it for windows, and they did an incredible job of it.

That doesn't change the fact that some people may not need windows for anything other than Vegas. I don't (I use Avid on my Mac). You probably don't; Open Office, Google Docs, Intuit Online, Gmail, etc. So many applications are already freeware, or online apps, that the argument for running any OS other than the one you want is becoming tired. If you choose windows, awesome. I'm not knocking it. I always buy an OEM version of the latest release of Windows. I just get tired of reinstalling it every 6 months. With Linux, an entirely new kernel is released by that time, so when I do a reinstall of Linux, I literally get a whole new OS.

To get to the bottom line,the point of my exercise with running Vegas on an alternate OS is to plant a seed of interest. Linux users are not just a bunch of lawless pirate hax0rs; they represent both the middle class and the high end. They are willing to spend money for well designed software. MainConcept left a gaping hole when they discontinued their Linux based NLE. Vegas would blow the doors off of the industry if they filled that gap. So if I can somehow make Vegas run on Mac OS, and I'm really nobody, who really knows nothing about anything, then the coding demi-gods at SCS could, again, blow the doors off. If they can get it running on Mac OS, then they are positioned to give both Adobe and Apple a friendly punch in the arm as well. But Linux compatibility is the key to post-production domination, IMHO.

I hope that answers your questions.

I should add that I just successfully installed Cinescore as well.

An additional word:
I do all of my 'real' Vegas work on an AMD Spider system, running Vista Ultimate 64 bit, in anticipation of the 64 bit version of Vegas. It's been a great experience for me. This whole Wine experiment is just that, a way to keep from going crazy working on other people's projects.

Great work, Idiot Savant. Can I just clarify one thing for you and everyone though? Wine is not an emulator. In fact, the name Wine stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator [cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software) ]. The importance in making this distinction confirms that Vegas running successfully on Wine means that you are running the program almost as if it was written for Linux, Mac, what-have-you, and the importance to that is performance. If Idiot Savant can successfully continue these experiments then this is, at very least, excellent news for the Linux community and the Sony Vegas community.

"Maya, Shake, Nuke, Smoke, Cinepaint"

Yes, I knew I was going to take some heat for that. There is professional and then there's PROFESSIONAL. Those packages are mostly run on a purpose-built system to perform that specific task. My point was more that there is no complete suite of affordable and capable tools that would allow one to do mid-range professional work running natively and exclusively on a single Linux box. These would be tools that most of the people that frequent this forum would use on a typical project, things like Vegas, Photoshop, After Effects, Sound Forge etc. And, the last time I checked, Peter Jackson isn't hanging out here. :)

John, here's my take (speaking only for myself). I do many things on a computer that have nothing whatsoever to do with video editing -- e-mail, database, word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, web page maintenance, to name just a few.

ALL of these things work better in Linux (for me) than in Windows. Security's better, reliability's better, upgrades are free, new software is free, etc., etc. No viruses or spyware, either (this may just be a function of a smaller user base). I started using Ubuntu just as an experiment to see what all the fuss was about, but have gradually started using it for most of my day-to-day computing needs. In fact, the ONLY thing I now use my Windows installation for is for Sony Vegas, and on rare occasions, After Effects or Sound Forge. So, being able to fire up Vegas without having to stop what I'm doing and reboot is a big advantage to me.

I agree that Linux video editing has lagged behind Windows and Mac capabilities. But in many areas, Linux-native applications are starting to catch up. GIMP is a very capable photo editor, and Audacity is starting to give Sound Forge a run for its money.

Finally (and I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me here), but I find the whole DIY, Open Source style of software development a welcome breath of fresh air from the global corporate and profit-dominated world of Microsoft, Adobe, and Sony (yes, them too....). In fact, it was this kind of spirit that first endeared me to Vegas. I always likened Vegas's scripting modules as the closest thing to an Open Source video editor you would find. It's really, really nice, to have fixes, updates and new features developed -- for free -- by people who also use the software, are accessible, and are happy to take comments and suggestions.

"My point was more that there is no complete suite of affordable and capable tools that would allow one to do mid-range professional work running natively and exclusively on a single Linux box."

AutoDesk would rebut your your remark, but I'm agreed, on all points. That is why Vegas would further rock the mid-range if it ran on Linux. Even if it were Vegas alone, without Acid Pro or Sound Forge it would open up a growing market, and ride the wave that companies like Dell and HP are currently riding (you can order new computers with Linux pre-installed and fully supported from both of them). Add to that the fact that Sony already owns more than one custom Linux distribution (it was designed by Sony to run on the PS2), open source projects like the GIMP are ripe for the picking by an awesome developer like SCS, and you have a winner; very low cost to develop and bring an expanded suite to market (quickly), with very high yield once it's there. I'm just crossing my fingers that the new Chief Technologist will A) see this and B) be able to make a case to the larger Sony Corp.

Anyway, the capable and intelligent people out in Madison have plenty on their plate, so the ramblings of an Idiot won't (shouldn't) really hold any sway as far as their current plans. I'm just experimenting, and bringing my findings to you.

Idiot Savant, could you please detail the way you set up your system to successfully test Sony Vegas? This discussion thread is getting rather long, and perhaps I could set up a tutorial page on how to achieve the current best case. Could ya?

also: could someone please post benchmark times from rendertest, etc.? And - do the infamous black frames still appear? And how about those complex renders that stop halfway through?