Vegas 5 vs The World. (other NLE's) My review.

Jackie_Chan_Fan schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 17:08 Uhr

Hello world.

I'm a 3d character animator/modeller, fx/ videogame artist. I've directed and edited cinematics for videogames etc.

I''m about to start editing a few projects and with the recent release of v5, i've decided to compare the competition to vegas5 and 4

I love Vegas. However i'm finding that i have a major gripe with it and V5 has upset me greatly. I will explain but first let me review the competition. My complaint will become very obvious (i promise :) )

First the compeition....

[Avid Express Pro]:

Avid express pro is one hell of an editor.... The performance of the editor is incredible. Its fast, full of great plugins. The bins are simply brilliant. Clips in the bin contain subclips etc. Simply drag all of the clips that contain subclips into the timeline, and avid creates a nice rough edit. Avid Express handles prerendered data so intelligently. Apply an Effect, render it, move it, apply another effect, render, move it.... Undo any step of that process, and avid brialliantly remembers each one of your rendered clips. Thus saving time, and it edits fluidly. The key benefit to this is simply having the abilty to render an effect on your clip, and being able to move it to any point in the timeline without losing your rendered data. (try that in vegas)

Avid Express Pro, isnt without its problems though. It can be unstable, the editing workflow is tedious at times, powerfull but tedious and overly complicated. The audio capabilities of the program are a joke.

Avid Express PRo also lacks a similar feature to Vegas's Velocity curves and this is by avid's choice. They simply cut Express Pro's balls off when it came to time warping effects and simply added a few lame, useless presets that ramp from 0% to 100 and 100% to 0% There are a few other lame time warp presents but none of them will give you the same incredible control you'll find in Vegas's velocity curves. ALTHOUGH... Avid Express Pro intergrates with Boris RED and now Boris Comtinium? which features Boris's optical flow technology which is similar to "twixtor" and "Retimer HD" in that it will track each pixels motion and create new frames with accurate motion blur. Its a time intesive process but the results are outstanding. I hope Vegas includes this feature into its velocity curves in the near future. Boris Red intergration in Vegas is just lame. The fact that it cant obtain the lenght of each clip, makes it virtually useless and time consuming to work with. I beleive this is a limitation of Vegas and not Boris Red. (is this fixed in v5?)

Avid Express Pro has NESTED TIME LINES.... Oh i wish they were in vegas...

-conclusion

Avid Express Pro is a great editor though and it does the basics so well, so fast, and its full of plugins that make it one hell of an editor. What kills it for me is the workflow of jumping in and out of segment/splice, segment/overwrite, and trim modes. Layering things for effects is also headache compared to vegas. Frankly i find it anoying. But there is power in it since every "layered" effect in avid is a nested effect within the clip. So moving a single clip, moves all of your "layered" effects. Very nice indeed.

Premiere Pro:

Well well well. Premere Pro. I started editing with Premiere years ago and i hated it then but i love it now.

Premiere Pro has come a long way. It shouldnt even be considered "premiere" anymore. Its much more like avid now, without the anoying segment/trim modes. triming, rippling, slipping, moving, etc are so nice in premiere pro. Vegas could learn a thing or two from Premiere Pro. For example. When you have two clips next to each other and you want to trim the beginning of the second clip.... Premiere will show you the last frame of the previous clip, and the first frame of the next clip that you're currently triming. Thus allowing you to judge screen position for conitnuity etc. Very nice editing tools. Premiere does cutting/triming etc nicer than vegas.

Premiere Pro also has incredible data management. Like avid, it handles rendered clips effortlessly, fast and intelligently. It remembers each level of undo, and you can move the clip without destroying the rendered data. Vegas simply sucks at this and it angers me greatly. This is a BIG deal in my eyes.

Premiere Pro has incredible after fx plugin support as one would assume :) But Premiere Pro lacks the quality fx/transitions, found in Vegas. Frankly i greatly dislike Premiere Pro's included fx, including their color correction which is slow and bloated. Vegas handle's color correction far better than ANY of the others at FASTER interaction speeds. VEGAS and SONY deserve a whopping crapload of respect in this area because It has secondary color correction and it is one of the features that i love about Vegas. More on this later...

Premiere Pro has NESTED TIME LINES.... Oh i wish they were in vegas... (HINT?)

Conclusion:

Premiere Pro is a better Avid Express Pro in that it edits quicker with similar workflows, intelligent media management like avid without the anoying segment/trim modes and difficult to select trim points. I'm drawn greately between Vegas and Premiere Pro. (I cant wait to see 1.5 of Premiere Pro) Premiere Pro lacks the ability to save teh settings of a filter tha tis applied to a clip. This is in 1.5 now, so that is definatly worth checking out.

Vegas 4 and 5:

Oh how i love Vegas, infact the more i love it, the more i hate it because its so good and just needs a few things to make it killer

I played around with the v5 demo and i wasnt impressed much. The new features are great but the lack of nested time lines, and intelligent data management has left me wondering if i should buy Premiere Pro 1.5 rather than v5 (i'll have to wait to see the demo)

I'm glad they added roto masking tools. I'm rather impressed that they did infact. The 3D TRS (translation rotation scale) features are odd at best. I mentioned i was a 3d artist, and i simply find the 3d ui in vegas rather odd but atleast usefull.

I'm more or less finding vegas clumsy. It is so powerful, yet it seems like features are being piled on rather than being thoughtfully implemented.

NESTED timelines should have been priority. Even over rotomasking which i'm ashamed to say is a feature i was hoping for. But Nested time lines come first! As do basic editing improvements, such as intelligent clip rendering and management of them.

Vegas has so many incredible tools when it comes to fx. Its such an fx oriented editing workflow but it fails to realize that FX work is COMPLEX while editing workflows are supposed to be simple. I can apply all kinds of incredible color correction tools in a very effecient manner. I can choose color curves if i want, and then add color correction, and then secondary corrections if i want. Thats POWER... and all of the other NLE's fail to match VEGAS in color correction tools. The fact that i can choose curves, or a color correction, or both is incredible. Premiere pro lumps it all under a single bloated color correction node that fails to perform as well as vegas's tools. With that said.... If i can apply all of these great fx filters... VEGAS should be smart enough to NOT DUMP my rendered clip data.

Rendering out a clip (not to new track) should create non destructive history info. In that i should beable to move a clip, trim it etc after it has been rendered without it LOSING its rendered data. AVid and Premiere do this flawlessly.

Vegas makes this a chore and its these basic things that make Vegas flawwed. Such a powerfull application needs better data management and that should have been the focus of v5.

Editing tools in Vegas are fast and fluid. EASY to work with but still too simple in terms of interaction. I think vegas could steal a few things from Premiere Pro and Vegas would then be the killer cutter :)

I have to say that i do not like Vega's single monitor window workflow. Avid's color correction 3 window workflow is incredible and Vegas needs this greatly. When editing i would like to see my edit as well as the new clip that i'm opening from the bins... That way i can make better artistic design decisions in how i edit. ALSO i wouldnt have to drag a clip into the trimmer to be able to scrub through it. It would already be in its own monitor window with its own timeline. I could scrub it in there, mark I/O points and splice in from there. Its much easier then draging to trimmer, marking and draging into the edit which i cant even see the current frame because the trimmer is displaying the clip that i'm about to bring in, rather than the edit's current frame. Seeing both in two monitors is the only way to really solve this issue. Single monitor in vegas sucks. Dump it.

And while you're add it. Adjust the color levels properly and deinterlace interlaced footage so we can edit with a nice clean image like in avid express.

Vega's clips are great and easy to work with however their display is confusing and cluttered. Its nice that they show video frames but it becomes too busy to look at. A simple single frame option and clip name display would be nice.

Navigating and moving around iin vegas is superior to the other two NLEs. Its great that you can now store layouts in V5.

The things that keep me in vegas are... color correction tools, velocity curves, great real time performance and incredible audio tools.

Vegas has a great set of fx filters and transitions... far better than Premiere Pro. Some of Premiere Pro's transitions look straight out of early video editing days. They're corny, they lack style and any video editor that uses some of those silly wipes in Premiere Pro should be shot :)

Vegas seems to come to a crawl when i have hundreds of clips in the bins while editing on a dual amd workstation with 2gigs ram. Undo an edit and wait a minute while Vegas figures out what the hell changed. Its anoying and scares me away from editing anything longer than a music video.

Well i have written a lot, and its in rough broken thought form as i sit here trying to remember everything i want to say.

Vegas is by far the best NLE feature wise however it lacks refinement and i was hopeing V5 would be that refinement. I'm curious how some of you folks deal with the lack of good rendered clip mangement? Ram previews are usefull but you cant ram preview an hour long edit. :)

Nested edits seem possible, and i think Vegas will have them in time. OBVIOUSLY the thing thats keeping them out of vegas is the very thing that makes vegas great. The amount of tracks and compositing features. Wrapping that all into a single clip... wow... lots of data. It would all work if they simply figured out how to get vegas to handle rendered clips better... and i think thats probably whats holding them up. Lets face it. Rendered clips are hard to manage when you have tracks of video that layer liek photoshop layers. Its a tricky thing and i think the Nested FX feature in v5 is a STEP towards NESTED EDITS because it is exactly the very thing needed before nested edits and better clip management is implemented.

I have a feeling Sony gets it and are trying very hard to implemenet the features we all want. I'm just heartbroken that v5 lacks them. The rotomasking is nice, and like i said... Nested fx are a step towards nested edits. From a software developement standpoint... (and i have worked in that field as a artist consultant) .... Its very difficult to implement BIG features like Nested time lines when you have a complex multi track layering system that was never meant to do it in the first place. Nested FX are/were a nessecary alteration to the vegas workflow because that is a step to finally figuring out how to manage data better and do full nested edits with intelligent clip rendering/management.

Of course sony could be reading this and saying "wow he is way off" ... but i'm only guessing :) I know you guys are working hard.. the product is excellent and above the rest in many ways... powerfull ways.

To you though i suggest implementing a multi monitor work flow option and some of the nice cutting features of premiere.

We need better plugin support!

Also i had mentioned Avid's layering ability... and how they keep applied FX nested under the root/source clip This makes it so much easier for editing. Simply move the clip around and it moves all of its layered fx with it. It makes it so much easier to edit rather than deal with all of the tracks inside vegas when moving clips.

I've said way too much.... :) Kirk Out.

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Kommentare

Jackie_Chan_Fan schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 20:04 Uhr

"Side note, prerenders will hold if you make any changes to audio tracks and audio events. Often I'll finish video editing and do a full project prerender overnight and then finish the audio the next day.
JCF, thanks for taking the time to give us your feedback on what you think would make Vegas a BETTER program."

Also if you prerender something now... and move the clip, then undo.... Vegas will remember prerendered clip. It just wont allow you to move, trim it etc. Premiere pro and avid will. Its such a time saver.

As for him telling me to get another program. I didnt take it that way. I think he was simply making a good point that there are alternatives. Frankly i'm not interested in alternatives really. I'm interested in whats out there.... and perhaps i would switch but there are so many things about vegas that i do like over the competition. Its just these few key things that are lacking from vegas and i was so hopeing v5 would take care of it.

I would love to see Vegas improve. It is not a second class program despite my concerns/complaints... Its a great program, it just needs these things badly.

Especially intelligent prerendered clip management.

And like you said... It may very well be hard to code into it. But i still think its possible. I think the nested effects is the step towards it.

GaryKleiner schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 20:11 Uhr

>Zooming into the timeline really isnt a great workflow. Its more moving around than nessecary and doesnt reflect any of the effects applied to a clip.<

Just to be clear: I did not suggest that you zoom into the timeline. I pointed out that you can expand the track size. Have you played with this feature? It's quite handy.

Your objection about reflecting applied FX still holds, though.

Gary

Jackie_Chan_Fan schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 20:35 Uhr

"I guess this is my point. Vegas would still have tremendous competition from Premiere, FCP, Avid even with these features and more. Mojo, Nitris, HD hardware solutions, etc all make for great hay in the marketing space."

True... But those hardware options are of a different class than a software only application as vegas. The prices of those hardware options and their respective software applications, are far more than vegas alone

-------

Price for Price... in the software only realm... Vegas wins. Also... Mojo's are nice.. but its still avid express pro... which lacks secondary color correction, velocity curves, a good audio suite etc.... Mojo is nice but its not the best. The problem is the software Mojo is tied to. Sure... If Sony made some nice Mojo like hardware for Vegas.... Forget it... Vegas has more features than avid express pro without the hardware.... toss in the hardware and vegas would be incredible. AND still affordable in comparison!

-------

"While there are absolutely some features Vegas could use, or use improvement on, my biggest issue with your post is that you want Vegas to be LIKE other tools. Then it's not Vegas anymore. As I said, what some call a "workaround" others call a feature. With network rendering, a fast machine, and a boatload of RAM, I'm happier working with multiple instances. You see it as a workaround. Premiere can't have multiples open. Avid can't. AE can't, Edition can't. So I see this as a feature. One I use daily.
But...I've also been using Vegas as my primary axe since well before the public ever saw the application. So my view is a bit jaded, I guess."

_______

Even with nested time lines, vegas would still have multiple instances. Nothing would change in that reguard.

And yes i do want vegas to be like other applications, if that means improving vegas. Borrowing good ideas does not mean turning Vegas into another program.

Jackie_Chan_Fan schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 20:41 Uhr

">Zooming into the timeline really isnt a great workflow. Its more moving around than nessecary and doesnt reflect any of the effects applied to a clip.<

Just to be clear: I did not suggest that you zoom into the timeline. I pointed out that you can expand the track size. Have you played with this feature? It's quite handy.

Your objection about reflecting applied FX still holds, though.

Gary"

Actually no, i havent tried that. I thought you meant zoom into the timeline. Actually thats quite nice. Thanks for the tip. I still think its a step too many, but indeed a nice feature.

I would still prefer to see it in the monitor rather than have to expand the track size. (especially when working with multiple tracks). Good tip though. Thanks.

Interestingly enough the CTRL/ALT edit command doesnt reflect effects either when it displays the two edit frames.

swarrine schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 21:53 Uhr

I agree with Spot, I wouldn't give up the ability to open multiple instances of Vegas for anything (exept real time, hehe).

I am always rendering while working. At night, I will render up to 3 MPEG-2 projects on a single computer which are ready when I come back to work the next day.

Jackie_Chan_Fan schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 22:55 Uhr

"I agree with Spot, I wouldn't give up the ability to open multiple instances of Vegas for anything (exept real time, hehe).

I am always rendering while working. At night, I will render up to 3 MPEG-2 projects on a single computer which are ready when I come back to work the next day."

No one said you would have to. A Nested workflow wouldnt take away functionality.

taliesin schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 23:26 Uhr

I agree. Nothing compares to nested timeline feature when it comes to working on very complex projects with dozens of tracks making many parts of the project being rather difficult to survey. I remember in my Vegas beginnings I sometimes even went back to CineStream only to have nested timelines. I don't do that no more (using CineStream) because in the end the Vegas workflow seems to be unbeatable to me. But I still miss nested timelines very much. One of my two personal major requests to Vegas. What you do with multiple instances and with nested timelines is quite different. These are different features for different kind of work. With multiple instances you only come closer to nested timelines if you combine it together with frame serving, but this has other disadvantages then. Multiple instances are really great. Add nested timelines and it is even greater. At least to me.

Marco

Spot|DSE schrieb am 09.05.2004 um 23:59 Uhr

No, it wouldn't take away any features. I'm not arguing that they aren't of value. What I am sayingis that it's not nearly as necessary as other application improvements in my view. Nested timelines would be great. But I'd rather see improvements to track motion, more compositing options, more 3D options, more audio options, more optimized codec, hardware, UI, options before nesting, because multiple timelines isn't that different from nested timelines. Different indeed. My bigger point is that earlier you commented that if Vegas had nested timelines, there would no longer be competition on the software side. Poll the users, you'll find that EVERYONE has a different feeling about what feature would "kill" the competition, and nested timelines will only be one feature on a long list. I'll stand up and loudly say that I've been using Vegas longer than any single person on this board excepting Dr. Dropout and the Sony engineers. I waved the flag and have had the sh** kicked out of me from points near and far at tradeshows, on the COW, on the WWUG, and many other places. I can't BEGIN to comment on how many times I've heard "If Vegas only had this.....if Vegas only had that...." then FCP/AVID/Pinnacle/Premiere/AIST/AE/Speed Razor/whomeever else would just go away. It just ain't true. Having one feature over another....and saying it kills the competition or whatever is absolutely false and silly.
The value in Vegas is the workflow. Nothing more, nothing less. The quality of tools that are there are on par with any tool out there overall. Name ONE SINGLE APP that can remotely cover as much ground singly, as Vegas can. There isn't one, period.
Nested timelines, hardware support better 3D, better HD support, better HDV support, SDI, Serial, AAF, OMF, faster rendering, more scaling options, more/better plugs, 7.1 audio, DTS, VST, yadayadayada....Are all GREAT things to have. And the line is never drawn about what it can or can't do, it's more a position of "what can be done that will make the product more marketable, higher quality, and useful to the largest audience out there?"
Believe me, if EVERYONE had screamed for nested timelines 6 months ago, you'd see them in Vegas if they could have been implemented in a fashion that leads to greater sales due to the engineering investment required. And i assure you, just like how there are tradeoffs to now having 3D, there would be tradeoffs to having nested timelines or several of the other features listed above. It's not like the engineers don't hear you, believe me, they do. More than any other software company I've worked closely with, and that's a long list. Sony cares deeply about what you/we want, and if the users demand it, the cost warrants it, and the sales reflect it, you can bet it will be there. In the meantime, most features are either implemented, or can be worked around, or creatively compensated for. And that's something you can't say about many tools.
Vegas ain't perfect. But all things considered, it's a whole lot closer to perfect than what else is out there. For me, anyway.
BTW, Jackie Chan rocks. Anyone that talented in front of and behind the camera is amazing. :-)

Jackie_Chan_Fan schrieb am 10.05.2004 um 02:39 Uhr

"No, it wouldn't take away any features. I'm not arguing that they aren't of value. What I am sayingis that it's not nearly as necessary as other application improvements in my view. Nested timelines would be great. But I'd rather see improvements to track motion, more compositing options, more 3D options, more audio options, more optimized codec, hardware, UI, options before nesting, because multiple timelines isn't that different from nested timelines. Different indeed. My bigger point is that earlier you commented that if Vegas had nested timelines, there would no longer be competition on the software side"

You're stuck on the nested edits. It was only one of my suggestions, and i wouldnt rank it the most important of them either.

I would rather see intelligent prerendered clip management come first.

StormMarc schrieb am 10.05.2004 um 19:02 Uhr

I think you've made some good points about the trimming. Premiere trimming is very cool. I also like how it shrinks the clip down (keeping the aspect ratio) instead of squeezing the clip like Vegas does. That squeezing makes it difficult to see what the clips really look like.

I don't understand why the plugin support is so lame. I was getting frames to the monitor inside of Boris back in the Speed Razor days of my youth.

Titler is very lacking compared to PPro.

I also agree that PPros transtions and effects are terrible.

I'm more of a long form editor so I was also hoping for these types of change in V5.

Marc

craftech schrieb am 10.05.2004 um 20:48 Uhr

I have never used Premiere so these are ligitimate questions:
1. Does Premiere have an amateurish and limited credit roll generator?

2. Does Premiere leave gaps when you edit on the timeline?

3. Is ripple editing useful in Premiere? I have given up on it in Vegas. I drag the clips together with the mouse.

4. Is Print to tape a gamble or does it work every time?

John

filmy schrieb am 10.05.2004 um 21:07 Uhr

I have still not used Premiere Pro so this is all based on 6.5

>>>1. Does Premiere have an amateurish and limited credit roll generator?<<<

Yes and no. It used to be pretty basic but than they sort of incorporated TitleDeko into the program. it is more advanced than what Vegas has if that is what you mean.

>>>2. Does Premiere leave gaps when you edit on the timeline?<<<

LOL!!! No it does not. This is something I have only encountered with Vegas. The gap/black frame issue still bothers me but I just try to make sure I check every edit. About a month ago I sent out a workprint for a producer to look at it. One of the things that came back to me to check was some "weird balck frames at time code..." so I went in and zoomed all the way in at the timecode they gave me - yep - sure enough there was a one frame gap sitting there. Never ever had that problem with Premiere.

>>>3. Is ripple editing useful in Premiere? I have given up on it in Vegas. I drag the clips together with the mouse.<<<

Ripple works fine. But I am basing this on the fact that unless I unlock/un-sync something everyhting moves as it should. In Vegas ripple editing works fine as well - provided you have made sure the audio and video of whatever you are cutting are highlighted. The sync issue in Vegas is what causes ripple headaches for me.

>>>4. Is Print to tape a gamble or does it work every time?<<<

Now this will sound strange but in Premiere I never had to use the PTT. Why? because, unlike Vegas, you can play out audio and video direct from the timeline. I have generated media that is for black and bars-n-tone. I drop that onto the Premiere timeline and simply place the start of the project at TC "00:00:00:00". All I have to do to output to tape if hit play on the timeline. I can mix in real time as well...something that was just added to Vegas 5 from what I can tell. (EDIT - Please read the next post by SPOT and my follow up post to clarify what I mean)

Spot|DSE schrieb am 10.05.2004 um 22:05 Uhr

Filmy, you could ALWAYS mix in realtime with Vegas, even version 1. It's just the HUI that changed. Envelopes have always been insertable and adjustable in real time.

I too, wish Vegas managed pre-renders better. I've pretty well quit using them, opting for RAM renders instead.
Premiere's third party titler is very nice, but then again, so is Grafitti.

filmy schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 00:07 Uhr

>>> Filmy, you could ALWAYS mix in realtime with Vegas, even version 1.<<<

Ok - my bad in the wording. In Premiere 6.5 I am able to mix real time during full realtime firewire output from the timeline in a non PTT setting. I don't know about audio output via firewire (non-PTT) with Vegas 5 but in Vegas 3 and 4 you can not mix during a PTT nor is there any audio output via firewire direct from the timeline, so just doing playback direct from the timeline out to tape as you view it is not a fiunction of Vegas.

So it was bad wording on my part - yes you have always been able to mix real time with Vegas. But you have not ever been able to record firewire output with audio direct to tape (Speaking mini-dv at the moment) without either doing a PTT or rendering and using the vidcap.exe to output - and when doing either of those realtime mixing is not available.

GaryKleiner schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 01:12 Uhr

filmy,

I am a liitle confused about your concerns about playing right off the timeline for output. Vegas is not designed to do this. Vegas does not have real time output. That's no secret. Premiere isn't either unless you have additional hardware.

The point in there somewhere is that with Premiere, you DO have that option. In Vegas you don't.

Gary

filmy schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 01:39 Uhr

>>>I am a liitle confused about your concerns about playing right off the timeline for output. Vegas is not designed to do this. Vegas does not have real time output. That's no secret. Premiere isn't either unless you have additional hardware.<<<

I think if you read why I posted it makes sense - craftech asked some Premiere questions and I answered them. I don't have concerns about playing video off the timeline really...I did when I first seriously started using Vegas. Because real time was not really real-time mainly and beyond that audio did not play off the timeline via firewire. Again if you read my reply to craftech you see why that might be a concern. If you want to go off of real time as in "hit play on the timeline and you get real time playback of unaltered footage" than you do *not* need any additional hardware. I will say that it has been very rare that I have ever been able to achieve full real time timeline playback from vegas. premiere 6.5 - never an issue. And I stress this is just putting basic DV footage on the timeline. I have mentioned this is the past - bug? meant to be? I dunno...playback from media pool out is perfect. Drop the media onto the timeline and frame rate drops. Obviously add effects and such and it drops even more...but forget about that for a second. In Premiere unaltered playback from bin or timeline is full frame rate.

So going back to the qesiton and my answer - about PTT in Premiere and if it works - I don't have to use PTT in Premiere for DV. And that was my answer, and my point. And it is also one of the things I suggested a few times - including the 'official' thread about Vegas 5 suggestions over in the audio thread. The ability to play audio out via firewire and the abilty to not force an audio render to *.w64 format during a PTT. (keep in mind another issue I mentioned a long time ago was the fact that with Premiere 6.5 I can drop almost any type of audio onto the timeline and have it play out in realtime via firewire. So, for example, I can have 8 bit wav, mp3 and DV audio on the same Premiere timeline and when I hit the play button I can hear it and mix it as it is going out to tape. With Vegas one has to hit PTT and wiat for all audio to be rendered to *w64 format before it will play out locked to picture to tape)

So it isn't like I am saying Vegas sucks because of this, or that it has hinderend me massivly. What I have to add in now is extra time for audio to render out that I did not have to do in Premiere. Also, and this has been mentioned by many other people, in Premiere I can pre-render effects and they actually stay in place but I don't even bother doing that with Vegas because the pre-renders vanish if I look at the timeline crosseyed. A normal workflow in Premiere 6.5 for me is to work away and when I am done hit the play button on the timeline and the record button on the deck. With Vegas it is like this - work away and zoom in to each edit to check for black frames, check to make sure that both audio and video are selected before hitting "del" on a cut, make sure the ripple is actually working, hit PTT, wait for any and all effects to render out than wait for all audio to render - even if there is nothing to be rendered audio wise - and than sit back and hope the PTT to actually works. (Actually when I look at that it makes me see how the end result workflow for me is slower than with Premiere. Hmmm...wow. )

rdolishny schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 01:49 Uhr

Discret edit had a really cool way of dealing with trims on the timeline.

Drag and edit around and see the head of the B shot scrub.
Shift Drag the same edit and see the tail of the A shot.

Brilliant!

- Rick

hookmeister schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 02:07 Uhr

i agree with the PTT time-cost issue. unproductive.
I usually flatten out to AVI and use a second machine for whatever DLT/DVD/tape whatall to get done.

I do wish render was quicker but who doesnt... all in all Vegas gets more done in one place than anything else in its range.

StormMarc schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 02:10 Uhr

Spot said: "Premiere's third party titler is very nice, but then again, so is Grafitti."

The main problem I have with Grafitti is that you have to jump out of the program everytime you want to see a change. Premiere's title actually makes your changes in realtime while your moving things around. This be a plugin structure problem with Vegas.

Marc

rmack350 schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 04:44 Uhr

I don't see much of a debate here.

Nested timelines = inserting a veg file as an event. If you want to edit the event then Vegas could open up a second instance and you edit away. Save the veg and close it and the event in the first project is updated. From there, Vegas renders that event just like a second process-except that it chunks it out in pieces. The Veg event on the timeline probably needs to look like a progress meter until it's done.

All of this leads back to better prerender management. Essentially, the nested veg just gets prerendered and those prerenders are robust. They don't get broken at all unless you open a second instance to edit that nested veg file.

Seems a little like using photoshop images in the timeline. I can always go back to the PSD file and tweak any of the layers. When I save it the changes appear in Vegas. Simple as pie.

Rob Mack

rmack350 schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 04:49 Uhr

Hard to understand why people think that adding a feature = subtracting some other feature.

People have had the same point of view regarding hardware-that, somehow, hardware support equates to hardware dependence.

On the topic of Vegas remaining "Vegas", we should always remember that Adobe is very good at suing the pants off of people. No, we don't want the features to be the same.

Rob Mack

rmack350 schrieb am 11.05.2004 um 04:56 Uhr

I think intelligently managed prerendered clips is probably the lynchpin to nested veg files anyway-that and being able to do the prerenders just as if it was a second instance of Vegas doing the job. It wouldn't stop you from working because it would happen "in the background".

Rob Mack