Alright, let me say this again, the Panasonic camera does NOT output a true 24fps progressive image, it does a 3:2 pulldown on the 24 frame progressive and outputs it as a standard 29.97fps, 60 field interlaced signal. The whole 24fps progressive scan thing on the Panasonic camera is seriously misunderstood. The 24p concept is explained exceptionally well in this month's VIDEOSYSTEMS magazine, it is a "must read." You can download the .PDF of the article here:

VIDEOSYSTEMS Magazine 24P Article (PDF)

You can, however, use Virtual Dub to convert the 29.97i back to 24P by doing an "inverse 3:2 pulldown." Of course, at that point, you won't be able to view it on most televisions.

In PAL-land, they just show the 24p film at 25i, which is one frame per second faster. Each of the two fields in the PAL video frame contain a single frame of film. This is also how the output from the Panasonic camera is handled.

John

John,

You are right in that initially, the Panasonic will output a pulldown of the 24P video to 30I but they are working with FCP on a way to import 24P directly. I read this both on Panasonic's site as well as FCP's. -Shon

I'm working with FCP 3.0 & CinemaTools in my Studio and I have tested the 24P capturing with this Incredible software & its Plug-in. I thought Vegas Video should be able to do the same techniques. in my opinion vegas video editing and processing system is better than FCP 3.0!
As Shon said; we can import 24p directly into the fcp 3.0 with HD card and cinematools.
For offline 24P editing, you may be able to capture compressed 24P video directly, or you mayhave to capture an NTSC or PAL version of the video (either from the 24P VTR if so equipped,or by way of a transcoder). You can then choose to edit at the captured video rate, reverse the3:2 pull-down and edit at 24 fps (for NTSC), or conform 25-fps PAL video to 24 fps. If you editat the NTSC or PAL video rate, Cinema Tools can convert the EDLs of the edited sequences to24 fps. If you edit at a 24-fps rate and your online system also uses Final Cut Pro, you can simplyopen the project with it and recapture the video as uncompressed. If the online system doesnot use Final Cut Pro, Cinema Tools can directly export an EDL for use by the online system

Could you Please Tell me more about Virtual Dub to convert 29.97i to 24P?
I'm in PAL land and I do not agree with you on "Each of the two fields in the PAL video frame contain a single frame of film"!; Specially when you want to edit a 25fps telecine transferred copy of the 24 fps film with accurate timing for final cut list generating.
You can find more detail on Focal point systems web site and Film Logic's user's manual ( PAL Section).

Welcome K1jahan, your post is most intriguing.

What 24p source were you capturing from, with which capture card?

K1jahan,

You can go ahead disagree with me, but that's how PAL telecine normally works. If the film was shot at 24 FPS, it will be played at 25 FPS, which is 4.166% faster. Each PAL video frame corresponds to one frame of film. The audio is also played 4.166% faster, but will often be pitch corrected in order to make the voices sound "normal."

John

I have captured the 24P HD video test from Sony HDW-F900 HD-Cam with cinewave HD capture card (Pinnacle systems) in uncompressed format!

Note:
“The typical approach to editing 24P video with Final Cut Pro involves two steps: an offline edit, using compressed 24P clips or down converted (to standard definition NTSC or PAL) and compressed clips, followed by an online edit with recaptured, uncompressed clips.”

Panasonic’s new AG-DVX100 24P mini-DV camcorder was announced at NAB, and Apple has committed to supporting it in a future version of Final Cut Pro. This integration will allow video professionals to acquire, digitally transfer via high speed FireWire, and edit content in Final Cut Pro at the camcorder’s native 24 frames-per-second, 480-line progressive-scan resolution

Sonic foundry or other companies should bring this technology to (IBM compatible – Windows Based) PC world!

I wished-for capturing and editing Native 24P via 1394 port in Vegas video without any down converting process. Just like “Apple@ Panasonic” development.

On the other side, the new generation of 35mm. Film editing systems should not blocked in Apple World.

We need plug-in software just like “cinema tools” for Vegas Video.

Dear John;
There are two ways that 24 FPS film can be transferred to 25 FPS video.
The first way is to run the film through the telecine at 25 FPS. This method can be called the “24@25” method. Time is compressed by about 4%, and as you said there is a one-to-one relationship between film frames and video frames.
The second method can be called “24&1”, and it involves running
the film through the telecine at 24 FPS. In a manner similar to the 3:2
pulldown of NTSC, one extra frame of video is created every second to
create 25 FPS.

Time is not compressed, but also there is no longer a one to-one relationship between film frames and video frames.

When working with 24 FPS film and 25 FPS video,it is imperative to choose one method or the other for transferring film to video, and to use only that one method throughout the entire project. If you have a digitally edited program in which some of the video was transferred one way and some was transferred the other way, it will be impossible to create an accurate cut list for conforming the film.

There are then three ways to edit film digitally in locations where the video standard is 25 frames per second. The first way is to transfer film to video using 24@25, use FilmLogic (Cinema-Tools) to conform the captured clips to 24 FPS, and do your digital editing at 24 FPS. The second way is to transfer film to video using 24@25, and do your digital editing at 25 FPS. You can then have FilmLogic create a negative cut list as if you were editing at 24 FPS. The conformed film will be about 4% longer than the digitally edited program, and you will have to adjust sound from the digital program by an equal amount to maintain synch with the conformed film.

The third way is to transfer film to video using 24&1, and do your digital
editing at 25 FPS. You can then have FilmLogic create a negative cut list
by matching back from 25 FPS to 24 FPS, the same as it does for matching
back from NTSC video at 29.97 FPS to 24 FPS.

K1jahan,

You'll note that I said "normally" not "exclusively." I did not mean to imply that the 4.166% speedup was the only method for converting 24p to 25i.

John

Do you know what is the pitch shifting and Time streching value of this 4.166% speed up?
How could I aplly the 4.166% to wave file with sound forge 6.0?

>>Alright, let me say this again, the Panasonic camera does NOT output a true 24fps progressive image, it does a 3:2 pulldown on the 24 frame progressive and outputs it as a standard 29.97fps, 60 field interlaced signal. The whole 24fps progressive scan thing on the Panasonic camera is seriously misunderstood. The 24p concept is explained exceptionally well in this month's VIDEOSYSTEMS magazine, it is a "must read." >>

I did read the PDF file you mentioned. I am under the impression that this camera can record at 24p, but "saves" to tape a 3:2 pulldown on the 24p. They also implied on their website, that via reverse telecine (or special software), the ORIGINAL 24p version can be recovered perfectly. I think they mentioned a way of coding the "actual" progressive frames, that could then be extracted via reverse telecine. If my understanding is correct, then, at least this means that 24p obtained in this manner would be accurate, because there actually ARE real 24p frames to work with, compared to "faking" 24p from native NTSC material, which is what most folks do now to get a so-called film-look. Reverse telecine on native NTSC material would only at best be able to create an interpretation of 24p, since no progressive frames were ever recorded in the first place, unlike the Panasonic.

Related to all this, can anyone point me to the tutorial mentioned elsewhere on this forum that explains how to take 29.97 DV, convert it to 24fps and then back. I tried changing my 29.97 to .8 frame rate, then rendered the file, but I wasn't real happy with the look. (All this in Vegas by the way).

K1jahan,

The time stretch function in Sound Forge is only accurate to 2 decimal places and also does not allow you to directly enter the exact percentage value. I do all my time stretching in Cool Edit, it does allow direct input of percentage values and is accurate to 4 or 5 decimal places. It seems to sound a bit better as well.

EW,

Your understanding about the process is absolutely correct. The Panasonic camera does capture at 24p but writes it to tape at 29.97 interlaced using 3:2 pulldown. You can indeed do a "reverse telecine" to perfectly extract the original 24p frames. From a software standpoint, it isn't very difficult to do. Perhaps Vegas will include this function in their next version.

Paul Holmes,

Converting 29.97i to 24p and back again isn't as simple as just changing the frame rate. The best way I have found to create the "film look" and simulate the "feel" of the 3:2 pulldown on footage which was originally shot on video is a software plugin called "FilmFX" from a company called "BigFX." Among other things, it simulates grain, film gamma, emulsion blur and 3:2 pulldown. It has presets for a number of 8mm, 16mm and 35mm Kodak, Agfa and Fuji film stocks. I have fooled a number of hard-core film guys with the results. Of course, a big part of creating a "film look" is to light you video like you are lighting for film when you shoot it.

BigFX Web Site

I don't believe that BigFX has a plug-in for Vegas, but they do support a WIDE variety of NLE systems, so it is possible that a Vegas plugin is in the works. It might help if we all ask BigFX about it in order to demonstrate a demand big enough to justify them porting it to Vegas. It really is a very unique and effective piece of software.

John

"From a software standpoint, it isn't very difficult to do."

Please send your resume immediately to drdropout@sonicfoundry.com.

Reverse telecine? My Sony DVD player does it, my TV can do it as well. Even the free program, Virtual Dub, can do it. The source code for Virtual Dub is easily available from Avery Lee's web site, perhaps you can have a look and see how he's pulling it off.

Virtual Dub Web Site

John

Paul Holmes: maybe you could try this...

**********************************************
ftp://porker.sonicfoundry.com/

username: dude
password: sweet
folder: Sample projects

download the folder "Intercutting film and video" to your local drive, read the word doc and then run the sample project. Hope it helps-
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Hope it's still working, I tried and it's a great starting point!