10 Bit Video

Edward wrote on 2/9/2005, 5:17 PM
WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!
Why hasn't Sony taken advantage of this?
A person gets so good at using Vegas, to a point a TV Network notices and wants to hire him... and BAMMM! You can't use a PC because Vegas wasn't made for 10 bit video.
Now that person has to learn FCP... (aslausdifqwofu0oaaaarrrrgggghhh) and Adobe AE.

Sony... WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!!!!!
Don't tell me it's a Xpri thing...

frustrated... very frustrated....

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 2/9/2005, 5:22 PM
A person gets so good at using Vegas, to a point a TV Network notices and wants to hire him... and BAMMM! You can't use a PC because Vegas wasn't made for 10 bit video.
According to whom? the majority of the media on the air today is 8 bit video. The majority of video shot is 8 bit video.
Can you honestly claim to be able to see the difference with the quality of what Vegas produces? I'll take up that bet any time.
farss wrote on 2/9/2005, 5:43 PM
I work with plenty of broadcast persons and I'd have to agree with SPOT, none of them are even certain if their kit can handle 10 bit, I'm not certain either and I'm talking DigiBeta here. 4:2:2 they certainly know but that's a different thing to 10 bit depth, maybe that's the source of confusion?
Actually I'd be interested to know just what gear does support 10 bit depth and over what interface.
And I'm not talking about some community TV station here, so if their techos don't even know if they could actaully handle that much res without truncating it I cannot for the life of me see how anyones going to be making that a requirement. On top of that probably around 20-30% of what goes to air originates on DV25. Given that I cannot see anyone in the industry getting too excited about 10 bit.
From what I can workout so far 10 bit is valid for acquisition but not needed for layback, heck the not cheap monitor I'm typing this on is only good for 6 bit depth!
Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 2/9/2005, 5:50 PM
There are quite a few 10 bit apps out there. Adobe Premiere Pro, Avid, some of Discreet's tools, FCPHD, but very few use it, very few call for it. The overhead is nice, no doubt. But to claim that it's so dire and critical to have for editing for television is a huge overstatement. Couple that with the speed cost, and amortize that against the current cost, speed, featureset...it's just not worth it.
Would it be "nice" to have? Yes. Would it be really cool? Yes. Would it be a great bullet point on a marketing sheet? Absolutely. Is it worth spending the extra cash for based on the significantly increased dev costs ? IMO, no.
Edward wrote on 2/9/2005, 5:58 PM
if quality isn't the issue, then can vegas capture beta sp footage? can decklink help?
Edward wrote on 2/9/2005, 6:01 PM
"4:2:2 they certainly know but that's a different thing to 10 bit depth, maybe that's the source of confusion?"

yeah... it is.
B_JM wrote on 2/9/2005, 6:13 PM
"can vegas capture beta sp footage'

yes , certainly .... many here do so ... one of the easiest ways would be with the convergent system or laird ...

farss wrote on 2/9/2005, 6:18 PM
To answer your question, YES, using SD Connect Vegas can capture 10 bit 4:2:2 via SDI from DB or SP. It can render to 4:2:2 8 bit and output to DB as such. I believe you can also do it via Declink, I've read of others doing it.
We have a LOT of FCP customers, I've yet to find one doing more than editing DV25 and outputting to DB!
All the broadcasters want is a DB master, they don't give a rats about what the acquisition format was. With Vegas you can do this and more, starting with DV25 and applying a few very fine tweaks you can make your footage look pretty un DV like, render out using the Sony 4:2:2 YUV codec and PTT via SD Connect onto DB and only an expert would pick the difference.

If you want better than this start thinking very expensive cameras, heck even to acquire 10bit 4:2:2 you're looking at fast disk arrays with space to burn.

The reality is broadcaster buy content, when acqisition quality becomes an issue it comes in big leaps, I know of one group of guys who shot something very marketable in DV25, client loved it, prepared to pay millions for it and more, they didn't want it just a little better though, they wanted it shot on HDCAM.
Bob.
Spot|DSE wrote on 2/9/2005, 6:19 PM
http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/articles/wfaa-Vegas.asp for more information on the Convergent, and who is doing what with Vegas and Beta.
Coursedesign wrote on 2/9/2005, 6:25 PM
"Adobe Premiere Pro, Avid, some of Discreet's tools, FCPHD, but very few use it, very few call for it."

In post, a lot of people use 10-bit and higher, more often 16-bit even, to minimize ugly rounding errors and banding when multiple effects are used.

In capture, 10-bit also gives more freedom in post production to tweak exposure, pull shadows, adjust highlights, etc. After my upcoming trip, I'll try to put up a web page soon with examples of 8-bit and 10-bit video processed in Vegas and Combustion, then each person can judge for himself/herself.

Certainly no TV viewers will call the FCC to complain about "the 8-bit video they just saw", but 10-bit video does have some production advantages for the reasons above.

Btw, XPRI is 8-bit only, and it is hurting them as people are reluctant to spend so much money and not get full Digibeta support.

I understand the reluctance of the developers to increase the bit depth, but I believe it will happen in every NLE eventually.

--------

The best solution for Beta SP is the Convergent Design box, do a search here for posts on this. It is more expensive than a Decklink card (which can also pull Beta SP footage), but you get full deck control in Vegas.
rmack350 wrote on 2/9/2005, 9:49 PM
My employers just got through showing a ballet doc at Sundance. Aquisition was DV25, most of the editing was done in 8 bit 4:2:2 on a media100, and titles and effects were done on an 844 system, which is ten-bit. From there, the whole thing was sent out via SDI to a Snell & Wilcox HD uprez converter onto Digibeta tape (Actually, I assume it was digibeta. Mainly I remember that it was a $75k deck that I was carrying up three flights of stairs in a victorian. It was heavy.).

The 844 is a very fast hardware based system. It actually is quite similar to Vegas in that it's very heavy on compositing tools. However, it's 10-bit and nearly real-time. When we first got the system I was looking at some comparisons of gradated fields, color corrections, transitions etc, and I have to say that certain things really did look better.

You can expect 10bit color to make better color effects etc. You shouldn't see any banding. However, if you ever go back down to an 8bit format you'd lose all of that since there's still only 256 possible values for each color down there. Where 10bit should help is in, of course, output to a 10bit format and also conversion to analog. Since analog is a continuous spread of voltage values you shouldn't see any stepping in gradated areas. If you're going to upres and project a film, that could be worthwhile.

844 is on the cheap side of 10bit systems. You could probably get yourself in for under 50k including a disk array. Ours is ten disks on fiberchannel. Unfortunately, things aren't looking too good for the Media100 company so I wouldn't be trying to get their 844 system for the moment.

Now, having said all this, 8 bit systems are perfectly fine. Most video work is done in 8 bit color. The key, however, is to be able to edit and output your project in something better than 4:1:1 color sampling. 4:2:2 is usually just fine for TV. In fact, if it was just edited camera footage, Vegas does a great job and you could stay in 4:1:1 space. However, for graphics and titles you'd do better in 4:2:2 or uncompressed. You would just need a way to output it. That's where I'd be beating on the Decklink drum.

Rob