1080 24p to 1080 60i

Yoyodyne wrote on 4/8/2010, 5:08 PM
Howdy folks, I've shot a little spot in HD 1080 24p. They want to deliver for broadcast, the specs are 1080 60i mpeg-2.

I've had decent luck using the mainconcept mpeg-2 Blu-ray 1920x1080 60i template but I'm hoping for better. The issue as one would guess is the motion issues going from 24p to 60i. I was over at the broadcast facility and we checked it on their gear, you can definitely see some interlace "wiggles" on some stuff. I'm still a bit shocked that they have no way of dealing with a 24p file.

Anyone got any advice? is their a method for this?

Thanks a bunch!

Comments

farss wrote on 4/9/2010, 2:22 AM
My understanding is that the normal way to convert 24p to 60i is to add pulldown. Nothing bleeding edge about this, it's been done in NTSC land since the very early days of television.

One thing to watch for is that for television it's not 24.000.

Bob.
Yoyodyne wrote on 4/9/2010, 10:38 AM
Thanks farss, I'm just not sure how to add the pulldown. I've tried the 24p Blu-ray mpeg-2 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown template but it gives me a 23.976 file.

When rendering from 24p to 60i is Vegas adding pulldown?
farss wrote on 4/9/2010, 3:48 PM
My understanding is that if you encode to mpeg-2 for a DVD from 24p then the DVD does contain only 24p. A flag is set that tells the playout device to add pulldown to get 60i. This is a very efficient scheme but not what you want.

If you simply were to convert 24p to 60i Vegas will resample and nothing will be easily able to undo that easily if at all. Many TVs are capable of pulldown removal or so they claim. This is also not the road you'd want to go down

A quick search of the online help using the word "pulldown" reveals that Vegas can add pulldown. I think this is the way to proceed. Force Vegas to convert from 24p to 60i by adding pulldown then encode that to mpeg-2 as vanilla 60i. You may need to render an intermediate 60i file to do this as I cannot see a way at the project level to select pulldown so that you could use nesting to get this done.
You should also consider which kind of pulldown would best suit. I think the traditional 2-3 pulldown rather than the "Advanced" 2-3-3-2 pulldown would be best as it gives less judder.

Bob.
Coursedesign wrote on 4/9/2010, 4:06 PM
"24p" in NTSC land is 23.976p (or 24*1000/1001 to be exact), which with pulldown becomes 29.97i (aka 60i, confused yet? If not, see the pulldown terminology next).

The right pulldown for what you want to do is indeed 2-3 pulldown, usually referred to as "3:2 pulldown."

Do NOT use Advanced pulldown, that is not good for viewing (it was created to allow editing in systems that couldn't handle 24p natively).
farss wrote on 4/9/2010, 4:41 PM
As I'm not in NTSC land one thing I find confusing as I've never had to deal with it is this "23.976" thing. I've seen it referenced as exactly 23.976 and at other times as "23.970".
Given that someone has given the value to 3 decimal places I have to ask, are they simply wrong or is there two different standards used i.e. 23.976 and 23.970?

Bob.
rs170a wrote on 4/9/2010, 5:00 PM
From Wikipedia:

Many 24p productions, especially those that are made only for TV and video distribution, actually have a frame rate of 24 * 29.97 / 30 frame/s, or 23.976frame/s (24/1.001 to be exact). Many use the term "24p" as a shorthand for this frame rate, since "23.976" does not roll off the tongue as easily. This is because the "30frame/s" framerate of NTSC is actually 30/100.1%, also referred to as 29.97frame/s – this framerate is matched when video at 23.976frame/s has a 3:2 pulldown applied. Similarly, 60i is shorthand for 60/100.1% fields per second.

Mike
Yoyodyne wrote on 4/9/2010, 5:48 PM
Thanks a bunch for the info guys.

So I did a bunch of testing and the best results were thus:

In 24p project Render as Cineform 24p.

Bring that file into 60i project. Disable resample and render to mainconcept mpeg-2 1080 HD file as 29.976 progressive. I also tried rendering as interlaced and they both looked the same. The station was fine with the progressive file and the engineer said it looked good. Motion was very subtly altered from the 24p but it did look pretty darn good and no weird interlace artifacts.

This was checking after they transcode to their system. Watched on a computer monitor and a Sony 4x3 interlace monitor.

Thanks for all the help!