Chienworks,

As usual, you are very helpful. I still get confused about the Supersampling. Somehow I got the impression that it was creating 'tween frames, much like Dynapel's Motionperfect. The key insight from you is that Vegas only does this on movement created by Vegas itself, but makes no attempt to anaylze the content of one video frame to the next. This makes sense, since that is a whole 'nother kind of problem.

Also, understanding that the basic algorithm for slo-mo (which is in essence what I'm trying to use) is cross fading also help me understand why I'm seeing image softening.

I'll try doing another test with resampling disabled and see if that helps.

Again, many thanks.

John,
I'm pretty interested inwhat you are doing. Im transferring Super 8mm using an Elmo 'telecine', actually it's is just a projector with a CCD block fitted in place of the lamp and a low power lamp in place of the lens.

Anyways the nominal fps on this thing is 16 2/3 but I get a fair amount of flicker out of it. I also have one for standard 8 version and it seems to be fine at 16 2/3 fps, shoudl Super 8 be run at 18 fps ?

Also I was under the impression that VV could do proper pulldown going from PAL or film to NTSC, does that only apply then, not going from 18 fps to 30 fps, not that I really understand just what pulldown does, I though it involved duplicating frames rather than generating new ones by merging.

I have two separate replies in this post:

1. To Chienworks: Turning off resample did the trick and gave me exactly the same sharpness as my AVISynth script. The intermediate frames have a slightly different character from those done by AVISynth. I'm not sure which I prefer. I'll probably go with Vegas since it is so much easier to deal with.

2. To farass: That Elmo telecine with the built-in CCD is a real find. They regularly sell on eBay for well over $1,000.

The standard way for small commercial outfits to do film transfer is with a unit like your Elmo. It can transfer the film at full speed (my Workprinter operates at about 5 fps), so you can get through a project in a hurry. However, because Super 8 film is shot (and projected) at 18 fps (old silent film was shot at 15 fps, and sound film is at 24 fps), and your video camera shoots at roughly 30 fps (and actually is continuously scanning each line of video), there is no way to avoid some flicker when videotaping a projected image. The problem is that the shutter on the projector must close during the time when the film advances to the next frame, and during that time, the video camera is relentlessly scanning away. This means that some scan lines in some video fields are going to be black. To minimize this effect, your Elmo uses a five bladed (as opposed to three bladed) shutter that opens and closes many times for each frame of film. This minimizes the number of black scan lines in any given video field, and thereby reduces the flicker.

Since your camera is capturing the film as it is being projected at its normal speed, there is no need for pulldown. It will playback at the correct speed. Pulldown is only needed in a system where you capture individual frames of the film. If you play them back at 30 fps (29.97 fps), the movie will be too fast, just like old 15 fps silent movies projected on modern 24 fps sound equipment. That's why everyone seems to be walking too fast when you see those old silent films.

If you are really fussy about your work, and want the ultimate in quality, then you should sell your Elmo on eBay and invest the proceeds in a Workprinter. Depending on how lucky you get on eBay, the incremental investment might not be that much. Roger (the guy who makes the Workprinters) also has versions that use the five-bladed shutter and project in real time. While these don't offer the ultimate in quality, they do offer one big benefit over your Elmo, namely you can use a modern camera with a much higher quality CCD. The one big problem with your Elmo is that the CCD is almost twenty year old technology. You can get a much sharper image, with less blooming in the highlights, with a modern camera.

Hope this helps.

Here's the link to the Workprinter site:

http://www.moviestuff.tv

John,
thanks heaps for that info. Actually they are not my Elmos, kind of on loan so I can do the work. Just about everything you describe about them though is correct. I kept going back to the old gent who owns them and saying the results to my eyes don't look very good, I mean they are passable IF you have an optimal print which is pretty rare to find given the age of most of the film we are given to transfer.

I think he is looking to hand this business and gear over to me, first thing I'd be looking to do is strip these units down, clean everything and replace the CCDs and maybe the optics.

I'd looked at the Printworker, having to buy one for 8mm and another for Super 8 is a bit daunting, plus of course as far as I can see it cannot cope with mag sound. Apart from that the problem is getting clients prepared to pay for the time / money for a quality product.

The Workprinter is a dual machine and does both 8mm and Super 8. It you want to get an idea what can be done with it and Vegas, check out my web page and click on the Super 8 and Wedding Tribute links. If you have Real Player and a fast connection you'll see what can be done.

My Web Site

John,
don't have Real Player, just caused me too much grief in the past but I've seen some results from elsewhere and you're right it does an excellent job.

Just have to see how things pan out, I'll try doing a client survey and see how many are preapred to pay the cost of having a good job done.

There is at least one facility nearby with a Rank Cintel setup so I've got to keep in mind what their rates are as well.