24p and 60i in same doc

Corsairbuff wrote on 6/20/2006, 5:31 PM
I am working on a documentary film that I would like to have both 24p and 60i as part of the look and feel of the film. I am currently using Vegas 5.0d. I don't see an option to export the final video leaving the footage as it was natively shot either 24p or 60i. If I upgrade to Vegas 6.0 is that an option? If not does anyone have any ideas on how I can achieve this spit format? Thanks for your time and answers.

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 6/20/2006, 5:35 PM
Vegas 5 can work with both 24p and 60i. You can't have both in native framerates as part of the final output, you must pick one or the other as a project format. Easiest to convert the 24p to 60i if you're trying for a film to video juxtaposition, but you can go the other way, too of course.
Regardless, you cannot generate a single file that is both 24p and 60i on output. The 60i must become 24p, or the 24p must become 60i. or whatever the master output will be.
Corsairbuff wrote on 6/20/2006, 5:55 PM
If Vegas will not allow both 60i and 24p output is there another video editing software that I can use to assemble the final project in? Forgive the upcoming bad words FCP, Avid, Premiere or Liquid?
Spot|DSE wrote on 6/20/2006, 6:29 PM
Nothing will allow you multiple framerate output. The media output format won't allow it. You can't contain separate framerates in a single MPEG stream for instance.
What you *could* do, is render out several smaller files in the frame rate you want them to individually exist within, and then use end actions in your DVD authoring tool to stitch them together. Personally, I'd find the small jumps to be very distracting, but it's about the only way you'll get multiple framerates in a single presentation.
In other words, you can have a 24p avi, 24p mpeg, 30p avi, 30p mpeg, 60i avi, 60i mpeg, but you cannot have a single mpeg or avi file that is partially made up of two discreet framerates and keep their discreet framerates. You either insert pulldown or remove frames.
farss wrote on 6/20/2006, 6:47 PM
Possibly what you might want to do is this:
Remove pulldown from the 24p material and edit as native 24p and then render to 60i. Treat your 60i footage as just that, edit and render to 60i and then joing all the 24PsF and 60i footage together. Then author a 60i DVD.

Keep in mind that 24fps film is broadcast as 60i, even on systems that can handle 24p it's still shown as 48p (well sort of, but you cannot project / display just 24fps, the flicker without a 2 blade shutter is unacceptable). I only raise this point because a lot of people seem to think that adding pulldown will cause the loss of film cadence and while that's slightly true 24PsF (i.e. 24p with pulldown to 60i) will never look the same as something shot 60i in the first place. The trap that needs to be avoided and what perhaps causes the confusion is editing 24p on a 60i timeline. This is NOT the same as editing 24p on a 24p timeline and rendering to 60i.

Bob.
Corsairbuff wrote on 6/21/2006, 5:51 AM
Thanks guys, Bob I'll try the 24p render to 60i. Since I have never removed the pulldown from 24p are there instructions out there or an easy way to do it. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. Thanks again.
rs170a wrote on 6/21/2006, 5:59 AM
There's a 24p white paper that may answer some of your questions.

Mike
Corsairbuff wrote on 6/21/2006, 6:11 AM
Thanks Mike, I got it.
David Jimerson wrote on 6/23/2006, 2:43 PM
What are you shooting with?

If you're working with DV, you don't have to worry about rendering 24p to 60i; it's already on tape as 60i with pulldown. If you want to edit on a 60i timeline, then shoot 24p with standard pulldown, not 24pA. Then, just capture with Vegas and edit with your 60i footage on a 60i timeline. Vegas will not remove the pulldown on a 60i timeline, so you're golden.
farss wrote on 6/23/2006, 3:30 PM
Editing 24p on a 60i timeline is not a good look. The result is FXs are rendered at 60i not 24p, i.e. the FXs look like video not film.
Removing pulldown and editing at 24p and THEN adding pulldown keeps the look of film through everything.

Bob.
David Jimerson wrote on 6/23/2006, 7:16 PM
I guess that depends on which FX you mean. You probably have a case for animation, like, say, windowblind transitions or motion tracking. Color correction, probably not as much, and text can be blurred (and should be even if you're editing in 24p).

So, I guess if you're going to be doing heavy editing, you could be right, Bob. But if you're just doing cuts and color-correction and some text, you can probably save yourself a step -- especially at DV resolutions.
farss wrote on 6/23/2006, 8:01 PM
Dissolves could be a problem too, for sure page curls. I'd have to thing about cuts, I think the result would be the same either way.

Bob.
David Jimerson wrote on 6/24/2006, 9:56 AM
Yeah, page curls would be the same as any animated transition. They'll look video-ish.

Dissolves would be OK as long as they're not really short, like less than a second. A standard two-second dissolve would be fine.

People have been editing telecined 24 fps footage on 29.97 timelines for a long time. Like I said, if you're just doing simple cuts and color correction, you'll be OK.

But yes, as a general bedrock rule, you should edit 24p on a 24p timeline. Every rule has an exception, though.
basshole wrote on 8/24/2007, 1:05 PM
I hope someone can help me out with a related issue.

I have footage I shot on an XL2 in 24pA that has to mix with 60i footage in the final outpout. The 60i footage needs to stay looking 60i, so the final output must be 60i.

Why did I shoot 24pA in the first place? I thought it was safest, as I know you can go back to standard, but can't go the other way.

I thought I had post methodology down, but when I render out what should be the final step, the 60i footage is all "ghosty" during movement. I tried some other settings, and got almost the opposite effect, where it's ultra stuttery on movement instead.

Here's a summary of what I did:

-start 24p project

-add raw 24pA clip

-render clip as "24p inserting 3-2 pulldown"

-take new rendered clip, put in 29.97 project

-edit as normal

-render like regular NTSC DV footage.

In Vegas 6, can someone walk me through the steps to take a raw camera clip in 24pA (2-3-3-2 pulldown) to a 60i clip (that still looks like 24fps of course)? Please let me know about any "gotchas" in the project settings or preferences I might be overlooking (resample setting, deinterlace setting, etc.) Thanks.