24p and PAL

Udi wrote on 2/1/2004, 11:26 PM

Hi,
There are a lot of discussion about 24p.

I like to understand the use of 24p in PAL world.

Is there 24p PAL, is ther 25p PAL, other progressive standards?
What consumer camera support it?
How does Vegas handle it?
Do you need a different "film-look" tutorial/script/method for PAL?
What about DVD - is there a progressive standard for PAL DVD? Is there any advantage? Should I use 24p NTSC format, as most PAL Player can play it?

Thanks, Udi

Comments

RBartlett wrote on 2/1/2004, 11:56 PM

There isn't a 25p PAL or 24p PAL template for DVDA in Vegas4 or DVDA itself.
This doesn't mean you have to reduce your footage to 720x480 if it is already 720x576.
If your work is progressive, even a Sony Pictures 50i setting will not change the compatibility of the playback on interlaced and progressive displays. What it may change though is how computer playback handles the work. It may de-interlace and reduce the overall resolution (bob/weave/inerpolate).

It is a job to buy a 24p PAL camera. Many 25p are available. So if you are replicating or just wanting an international response to a single target disc run. Then you might want to rescale your work to 720x480 (crop or resize / AR). When you import your work into a 24p project in Vegas, make sure that your work becomes 4% longer. 24 of the original 25 frames should go ino each second. Then increase the pitch of all the audio by 4%.

Make your NTSC 24p DVD, optionally with AC3 based audio. On an NTSC60 player, it will play as it did on the timeline. On a PAL50 it will usually be on a cropped frame but will play at 4% faster and be pitch converted down by that player. The viewer may not know if he is using NTSC timing or PAL. There is a chance that his picture will roll or be black and white. It depends on both the DVD player and the TV. In the NTSC deck/mode a pulldown will also be inserted.

Have a look at your PAL DVDs from Hollywood. I think you'll see 25p PAL is flagged in some of them. Some will also be mared as interlaced but in fact will be progressive movies. YMMV

As for film look templates and guides. Pulldown is generally an alien attribute in PAL telecine. Otherwise much of what you read is valid.

I'd personally do the release in two formats. DVD 50i but with 25p at PAL res. Then a 24p NTSC res version that will typically be viewed at 59.94i.

The DVD-forum and the camera manufacturers agree with these Sony products. ie they bias towards a reduced variety of formats that are non-NTSC. HD has a similar game afoot.

(until recently living room progressive TVs and DVD players have been for NTSC mode only even with the PAL models. Just work around it all your way.)

PeterWright wrote on 2/2/2004, 1:25 AM

If you can tell the difference between 24P and 25P, you're a better man than I am, Gungadin!

Udi wrote on 2/2/2004, 2:45 AM

Thanks

farss wrote on 2/2/2004, 5:13 AM

Peter,
actually the question is a tad more complex than that. I think the issue Udi is trying to address is can you make a 25p DVD.
I believe the answer is Yes but finding something that'll play it is a bit tricky at the moment.
Certainly I doubt anyone would be able to see the difference between 24 and 25 fps however the 24p DVD standard is based on NTSC resolution and you probably would notice the difference between 576 and 480 lines.

What I'm going to do a bit more research into is a locally available HiDef DVD player that uses red laser DVDs.

PeterWright wrote on 2/2/2004, 5:28 AM

Thanks Bob - be interested to hear what you come up with.

Someone told me that the DV100X PAL version produced 25P, but they might have been talkin' thru their headgear .......

RBartlett wrote on 2/2/2004, 7:05 AM

DVX100E is 25p or interlaced (50), no 24p option in the PAL version of the camera. It maybe the same CCD in the NTSC and PAL version though, so electronic image stabilisation or HD modes may be worse in PAL land - I don't know.

Samsung has an HD DVD player that upsamples SD (DVD-Video) to HD buying the equivalent of what you get on a PC when you a player is letting you work at a non-DVD resolution. (US$270, uses DVI out) Worldwide.

Polaroid Electronics (Petters Group) did have a DVD player with an additional CD writer in it that could support WMV9 DVD at HD resolutions (component out). 110VAC 60Hz PSU only, didn't quite make it into the Walmart stores AFAIK. Aeon and Equator were the OEM company behind it. It was the DVD-DVR 700, which was only on the Petters website for a short period of time.

I've in read in countries that don't support Microsoft's EULA ruling on enhancing X-box console. That it is possible and somewhat legal to use the consoles to play WMV9 through HDTV or VGA ports.

With enough interest the Xbox-2 maybe a media center for both local networked and internet sourced material. It won't in itself sway the decision to adopt or reject the WMV9 proposal to the DVD-Forum as being in the final HD-DVD-Video spec.

I can't see why Dell would be upset with Xbox's being used for HD playback of red laser hidef DVD. I can see why Dell have agreements with M$ not to allow the X-box family to be allowed to be used as home computers for MS Office or Works, or heaven forbid, Internet Explorer. They would lose all those low end sales to parents that have been bribed by schools to get a PC and Internet for the kids.