29.97 drop frame capture

Bolide wrote on 6/13/2003, 2:03 AM

I'm a composer scoring to picture for TV animation series. I use several programs for audio including Acid Pro 4 and the audio part of Vegas 4.

Pardon my profound dumbness, as a sound guy video is totaly new to me.

I get a VHS tape from the studio for each new episode with voice on the left audio track and 29.97 drop frame (standard color TV) timecode on the other with a timecode burn also on the picture.

To avoid the constant horror of shuttling back and forth on the VHS deck to get hit points I would like to capture the VHS as an AVI, bring it into Acid, or Vegas, and use it to sync to.

To me, the captured AVI is just the means to an end, and will be discarded after the music is shipped for post.

My first question to the sales guy was "will this Dazzle DVC 80 capture at 29.97 drop frame" and after a big smile and a hearty yes answer, I left the store eager to make cheezy low quality reference AVIs to sync my music to.

Well......Vegas 4 captures just fine, but drops frames like mad because the DVC80 is not supported. The Dazzle MovieStudio 5 software that comes with the DVC80 captures without a single dropped frame (I can check with the timecode burn on each frame) but it only captures at 30 frames per second and is out of sync with everything else.

Has enyone had any experience with MGI Videowave? Dazzle sez it works with the DVC 80 and you can select a capture rate of 29.97 drop frame. I would like to avoid another install if It won't work.

High quality is not my goal it's just a dub off VHS, and I like the USB option 'cause it dissapears when you pull it out.
If I can't find something that will work with the Dazzle DVC 80 I've heard that Vegas supports the Viewcast Osprey 50 USB analog card.

If anyone has any hints it would be a great help.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Comments

filmy wrote on 6/13/2003, 2:30 AM

Not sure what your budget is but if you do a lot of audio work and you need the ability to read TC you might consider something like this. It supposedly does work with Acid and VV. Check it out it may be what you need.

farss wrote on 6/13/2003, 7:38 AM

The Dazzle DVC 80 should work fine although I've only used it to capture PAL but the process is not foolproof, particularly coming off VHS. If's the Dazzle itself that seems to have a problem.

It seems to need a few frames of clean composite video to get its act together but at times it syncs incorrectly. If theres a few seconds of clean video at the start of what your tying to capture wait until thats running into the Dazzle and then cycle its input through the PB switch on the front, this forces it to resync and all should be well until it looses its input and then you'll need to do it again.

As far as I'm aware the Dazzle is doing nothing more than an analogue to DV conversion so it doesn't need any support from VV. Proof is I can run the same process using my D8 camera to do the A/D conversion and never have a problem.

I have used Video Wave and for what it is its great and pretty well free, well it came bundled with my firewire card. But I think your going to have the same problem with it and the Dazzle.

Former user wrote on 6/13/2003, 8:52 AM

Drop frame refers only to the Time Code and has no effect on the video rate which is 29.97 NTSC. A video device must capture at 29.97 when capturing VHS or DV NTSC. Soem software will only list 30fps (they just round it off).

The Drop Frame is the Timecode format. Drop frame is a more accurate formula for relating time code to actual elapsed time. If the DVC80 capture is out of sync, there is probably other issues other than it capturing at 30fps.

Dave T2

Bolide wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:16 PM

Thanks for the reply.

I'm using a Motu 2408 now and it's great.

My problem is actually in the length of the captured AVI.

If I drop the AVI in to Acid or Vegas, and set the time at cursor to the same time as the timecode burn on the video frame with 29.97 drop as the vegas format, then move the Vegas cursor, after 7 minutes the vegas time display is 10 frames longer that the timecode burn on the AVI frame at that place. So... the AVI file is a third of a second short after 7 min.

Bolide wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:29 PM

Thanks for the reply, I should try and ask some of my composer guys also, I may just be doing something really dumb, but I think the length of the AVI file is quite important.

If I drop the AVI in to Acid or Vegas, and set the time at cursor to the same time as the timecode burn on the video frame with 29.97 drop as the vegas format, then move the Vegas cursor, after 7 minutes the vegas time display is 10 frames SHORTER that the timecode burn on the AVI frame at that place. So... the AVI file is a third of a second LONGER after 7 min.

Former user wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:30 PM

Make sure your project setting is set for DROP FRAME also. The AVI is not any longer, the timecode is just not accounting for the Drop Frame vs. Non-Drop Frame.

If your project setting is displaying non-drop frame, then you will have an error of approx. 2 frames per minute vs. the actual drop frame code.

Dave T2

Bolide wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:37 PM

Gads!! SORRY, not enough sleep and to many deadlines!

I just checked, and the result is actually the REVERSE of my last reply. The captured 30 fps AVI T/C burn is 10 frames LONGER than the Vegas or Acid 29,97 drop cursor time display at the same place.

Oops

mikkie wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:38 PM

FWIW, I don't think I'd consider anything usb unless it was usb 2... Problem is the bandwidth just isn't there, so you have to rely on whatever tricks the manufacturer implements to shrink the data stream. Firewire on the other hand is very usable and common enough that you have your choice of several devices for $250 - $500 US. Perhaps just buy yourself a camcorder to play with, and write it off by using it to do the captures - the new Canons advertise they work this way as a passthrough, and start about $425 on sale online.

That said, if you have an audio track for reference on your vhs tape, plus an audio track with timecode you know is accurate, it's workable to use the two for alignment, stretching or time compressing your video as nec to get it accurate.

Former user wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:43 PM

Does the Timecode display in the video have Semi-Colons as space holders, or are they colons. It sounds like the Display is showing non-drop.

Dave T2

Bolide wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:45 PM

Yeah. I was pretty sure that I checked that. But after a while my mind tends to slowly drip out my left ear.

It would be great if that's the case.

I think I'll try a little sleep and food before I get back to it.

Thanks

Bolide wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:47 PM

Thanks.

I'll Try that.

Bolide wrote on 6/13/2003, 1:52 PM

Thanks.

That just might be the easy fix!

Dumb audio guy mumbles "Duhh, you can time stretch video too?!"

SonyDennis wrote on 6/14/2003, 5:34 PM

If you can borrow a DV camcorder, and have a 1394 / Firewire / i.Link port, you could capture your video as DV, which might go smoother than the Dazzle device.
///d@

Bolide wrote on 6/14/2003, 9:52 PM

Thanks for the reply.

The studio makes me a VHS copy from their Beta pro decks after the edit. I guess this is the standard way things are done. so I would have to feed the VHS into something along the line.

Soon, I think they will go over to DVD. I know all the pilots go out to the trade fairs that way now. It would be great to just get an AVI file.

mikkie wrote on 6/15/2003, 8:04 AM

"The studio makes me a VHS copy from their Beta pro decks after the edit. I guess this is the standard way things are done. so I would have to feed the VHS into something along the line."

*might* be 'cause that's std procedure and no one's thought about it... If they're rendering animation, quite possible they're dealing with avi files of some sort on disc before they transfer to Beta. Might be possible to have them just burn a disc (DVD-RW etc.) with the files in a format you can use without modifying anything - not as a std DVD.

Please bear in mind that the normal DVD has compressed video that 1) usually has to be extracted to get something useable in an NLE; 2) the mpg2 used while synced with whatever audio, still contains the audio as a separate stream, so there's a bit more room for slippage one way or another.

IF a DVD would help, an easy possibility might be something like the pioneer PRV-LX1 if they don't already have something similar, where you feed it a signal and out comes a freshly burned DVD.

And, please don't forget that Sound Forge will display your video just for your purpose if that might help.