3 point editing... WTF?

[r]Evolution wrote on 5/26/2009, 8:11 PM
I have a STILL loaded in the Trimmer.
I set my In & Out on the Timeline.
I select my Target Track.
I highlight the In & Out on the Timeline.

To me... I have 3 points selected....
(1 in the Trimmer & 2 on the Timeline.)
...but I am not allowed to add the Still to the Timeline between my I & O using Shortcuts (A) or (Shift+A) nor is Fit-to-Fill enable although I have 3 points selected! WTF?

I have to go in and add another point in the Trimmer (now we're at 4) to get it to recognize that I want to add the Media to the Timeline or advance my Playhead Forward. WTF?

Seems as if Vegas should be able to differentiate between a Still & a Movie knowing that a Still is only 1 frame automatically showing/selecting it allowing you to set your 2 points on the Timeline and adding the Still. I have my STILL length to be 5secs... and it shows a Still in the Trimmer with a length of 5secs although it's only 1 Frame. Yep, I can Scrub a Still & even Play it for the 5 second duration. WTF?

Our Facility has FCP, PremierePro, Avid Media Composer, & Vegas. I'm trying soooo hard to get everyone to use Vegas Pro 9 instead of the other NLE's so we can do away with those seats and replace them all with Vegas but it seems like every time I get them headed in the right direction, something like this comes up and the editors are jumping back over to one of the other NLE's to do their job in a more familiar to seasoned editors atmosphere. [I too have found myself doing this on occasions.[/i] Then I have to hear the argument/debate and deal with our CEO as to what Vegas does NOT have and why it can NOT be our sole NLE.

I know no NLE can do it all... but Geez... there truly is a method to the madness of the 3 point edit. Vegas is apparently not aware of this.

- Could someone please point me in the direction of how to do a proper 3 point edit in Vegas?
- Also, once I have my I & O selected in the Trimmer... why can't I just Drag & Drop my selection to the timeline?


Comments

Earl_J wrote on 5/26/2009, 8:25 PM
I imagine the WTF? punctuation throughout the message is short for
. . .
It is frustrating, to be sure. . .

Until that time... Earl J.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/26/2009, 8:37 PM
works fine for my in 8c. maybe you're doing it wrong or there's a bug (no version of vegas specified, just mentioned you want work to use 9)?

I did both types of 3 point: select in/out in trimmer, single on TL & then SHIFT-A. Double on TL (click for first, SHIFT-click for second), one in trimmer & then SHIFT-A.

Do you have a SINGLE point in the trimmer selected? If you have a selected area (blue highlighted) it won't work. Stills aren't a single frame either, they're as long as the defaults say they are. So if the defaults are set to 35s stills, the stills dragged to the trimmer will be 35s. Don't forget you can't add anything longer then the still default length, you'd need to manually stretch out the event.

Should be able to drag/drop from the trimmer to TL too.
Spot|DSE wrote on 5/26/2009, 10:12 PM
Do you have a SINGLE point in the trimmer selected? If you have a selected area (blue highlighted) it won't work.

Almost.
If you have a selection on the timeline and only an "IN" point set in the Trimmer, then hitting "A" will fit to fill from the IN point to the end/out point specified in the timeline selection.

Not sure why this isn't working for the OP. Why load the still into the trimmer anyway? Seems counter intuitive. You can't trim a still.
[r]Evolution wrote on 5/31/2009, 12:33 AM
WTF = Where's The Fun?
I have a 3yr old, OK
I put WTF not thinking about the outside world where it means 'something else'. That is NOT what it means here. For me... if I'm having a problem, it is Not So Fun so I put Where's The Fun. Same as we say with our little one when she's frustrated with something.

Why load the still into the trimmer anyway? Seems counter intuitive. You can't trim a still.
I do NOT want to place Media on the Timeline to 'Trim It'. I do not do this in any NLE. In other NLE's where you have to Render your timeline, you lose your render if you start dropping media on the timeline in places it does not go. If I need a Still for 2seconds I'll put in a 2second range and Insert... not add 5seconds and Trim.

-- Have to grab the Trimmer's Event mini-Timeline to Drag & Drop from Trimmer to Timeline.
That's 4 points - 2 in Trimmer/2 in Timeline.

Where are the IN/OUT Indicators?
So you know when your Scrubber is on the IN/OUT in the Trimmer & Timeline.

Where are the Clear IN/OUT buttons?

I'm trying to add a Still (default 5secs) from the Trimmer to a 1sec IN/OUT on the Timeline. Only option is Fit-To-Fill and it gives info of: Fit to Fill not possible because event rate would be outside of 25%-400%.

How do you add 1second of a Still using conventional 3point editing? WTF?
similar to other NLE's, not some weird 'work-a-round' way.

I'm liking VP9... but some things are still missing for the experienced editor hoping to easily roll out of another NLE to Vegas.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/31/2009, 11:56 AM
That's 4 points - 2 in Trimmer/2 in Timeline.

check the online help file, PDF manual, I told you how to do a 3 point edit (that's what you quoted). There's two kinds of 3 point: two points on timeline, one in trimmer, then one on tl & two in trimmer. You want the first one. I just did it, it works just like I said.

I do not do this in any NLE. In other NLE's where you have to Render your timeline, you lose your render if you start dropping media on the timeline in places it does not go.

vegas doesn't render so you can see your changes in the preview window, so it's a non-issue with vegas.
[r]Evolution wrote on 5/31/2009, 2:28 PM
vegas doesn't render so you can see your changes in the preview window, so it's a non-issue with vegas.
No, it's an issue of 'Sloppy Editing'. Bad habits are hard to break. If I know I only need 2seconds... why would I add 5seconds?

I told you how to do a 3 point edit (that's what you quoted)
Thank you for taking the time to tell me how to do a 3point edit in Vegas as I had quoted or asked. You did a very good job. It is I that misunderstood your post.
Also, since you notice so well what I quoted... I'm sure you also noticed that I quoted I was working with a Still in the Trimmer. You were not. Working with stills is the weird one for me.

I like my workflow set up in a way that works with all NLE's. So far so good, as long as the NLE's stick to conventional methods of editing... ie: Source/Program.
I can see how editors that have never used another NLE like the Vegas' quirks as they know no other way. But for those of us that use other NLE's and know the Hardware counterpart(s) to the digital NLE, those 'quirks' are weird. I guess that's the trade-off of having an NLE that's confused as to who it wants as operators... Professional or Consumer.
- I personally think it would be hard to serve 2 Masters.
Vegas Pro should be Professional and stick to Pro Standards of conduct.
Platinum can have the Consumer/'My First NLE' feel & function.

I guess I'll just continue to poke around and figure out the 'quirks'.
Please notice how Vegas is starting to put in the things experienced editors are requesting. Things that are reminiscent of the 'Classic NLE'. Certain things/functionality are there for a reason. You can't change them unless you have something better to replace them with.

Imagine how easy it would be to win over fans of Avid, FCP, or PP; if when they opened Vegas, it was familiar to them along with the smooth flow of what's under the hood.

Someone else apparently feels my pain of the Trimmer.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=657514&Replies=0
TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/31/2009, 3:06 PM
Also, since you notice so well what I quoted... I'm sure you also noticed that I quoted I was working with a Still in the Trimmer. You were not. Working with stills is the weird one for me.

Later tonight I'll record a vid of what I'm doing. I am using stills. Also tried generated media, m2t & DV AVI, all with the same results.

No, it's an issue of 'Sloppy Editing'. Bad habits are hard to break. If I know I only need 2seconds... why would I add 5seconds?

Sloppy editing in when you leave extra frame behind that you don't notice, unsync the A/V & don't resync, etc. Using the Vegas TL to it's fullest isn't sloppy. It's the only NLE where you CAN drop a 5 second still & get it to fit the area faster then using the trimmer. It's the only NLE where you have a choice of which way will work best. I started on Premiere & it's quite limiting in workflow. Long before Sony/Vasst came out with the Production Assistant I setup templates in Vegas to do the same stuff & always used the TL to trim clips as many times they needed something changed anyway.

Yeah, you could setup a vegas workflow that works with all other NLE's but it's counter-productive. The way the tools work are different and no NLE works well if you force it to work against it's design. The main reason to use Vegas is because it's not another editor, and if it is like every other then there's no reason to switch.

I'm actually surprised you're mentioning this now... You've been on the forum for quite a few years. Not that I'm surprised you have a question/idea, those are always good (looking through your old posts answers some of the recent new threads I've seen here!), but I'm surprised you would be using vegas for this long & still have the same issues with it after all these years and still stick with it. Like I said above, I am with vegas specifically because I didn't like how other apps worked, but I didn't like the way Adobe handled photoshop upgrades/compatibility, so I switched to Gimp. I didn't like the way premiere handled the trimmer, TL, playback, audio, and a whole slew of other things, so I switched to Vegas. I'm pretty sure Sony is trying to make Vegas more like other apps, and there will be a point where I'll recommend to people to NOT buy it because of that. Might be a point where I switch to another app too because of this.

Earl_J wrote on 5/31/2009, 4:33 PM
Hello _ _ _ _,
I'd like to call you by name, but you haven't left one. . . (sigh) . . .

Under the preferences, there is a setting for the length of stills as they enter the timeline . . . that doesn't work for you?
You can change it as often as you like - it will not affect those stills currently in the timeline, only new ones added after you set the length . . .
So, if all you use is the 2 second still, set it for 2 seconds and never bother with is again.

It also permits setting the overlap of each still as it comes into the timeline ... set it to zero if you do not want any overlap.

So, you could grab 50 stills; drag them to the timeline; they appear as sorted in the project bin; all with the same overlap duration you selected.
If they are not in the proper sequence in the project bin, you can use an appropriate naming scheme before selecting them and put them in the desired sequence. Once you select them and drag them to the timeline - viola! - they're all in the proper sequence at the same duration and with identical overlaps (if any).

I think that might help with your problem, if I understand it right...

Just a thought... until that time. . . Earl J.

PS ... thanks for the explanation of theWTF? comment...
Earl_J wrote on 5/31/2009, 4:55 PM
Hello again s2r,
a quick peek under preferences>editing reveals the new still image duration selection in seconds. . . set the duration to 2.000 seconds; select OK.
Then, enable the shuttle function on the timeline; split the video at the spot where you want the still inserted; insert the still (it comes in at the duration you set in the preferences at the point where the cursor is located); and pushes the timeline back to accommodate the new still.
_ _ _
A second option would be to place it on a track above the video timeline. In this fashion, it replaces the video on the track below without disrupting the audio track . . . if your username indicates what I think it does.

Does that help?

Until that time. . . Earl J.
[r]Evolution wrote on 6/1/2009, 8:16 PM
Yeah, you could setup a vegas workflow that works with all other NLE's but it's counter-productive. The way the tools work are different and no NLE works well if you force it to work against it's design. The main reason to use Vegas is because it's not another editor, and if it is like every other then there's no reason to switch.
Very true. I guess I'm just trying to make Vegas do what it was not meant to to do in ways that it was not meant to do them. It's just weird to me that an NLE has thrown away 'Conventional Editing' and wonders why the Professional world does not accept it... but glad to see that the requested features that would be considered 'Conventional Editing' are being listened to and added.

My editing flow over the years has become very similar with all NLE's but Vegas just seems to escape a lot of this flow. I tend to buy/use Plug-Ins that will work in all the NLE's I use too. Vegas capabilities definitely outweigh its non-capabilities and it gives my projects a certain 'look'. I'm just NOT a Timeline editor. I usually edit per a Script and IN/OUTs are super important & useful to me.

I stick w/ Vegas for it's Strengths same as I stick with PP, FCP, & Avid for their strengths.
To me:
Vegas strengths = Smooth & Easy
PP, FCP, Avid = Income from Collaboration with others

All NLE's have their quirks... the struggle continues.

If/when I find a fix for my woes... I will post them.