44.1 K recording, 48 K project - no sync possible?

Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 10:35 AM
This may be simple issue but puzzled me...

Recorded live event with multiple cameras and Roland R-26 all at 48K. Cameras and Roland sync perfect - no problem. BUT I needed house sound from the house mixer. Audio tech said he would record house sound to a thumb drive for me. I didn't think to ask at what rate. It will not sync with anything else and the differences are astonishing. Vegas says it was recorded at 44.1 K. Audio sounds good but I can't use this. Tried a couple things in Vegas 12 like converting it the 48K. no help. Is there a remedy? Not expecting one.

Thanks

Comments

Chienworks wrote on 9/16/2014, 11:10 AM
There is no need to convert, and no benefit. Leave it in the format in which you got it.

How badly is it not syncing? Is it just a different speed? You should be able to find a point to match them up somewhere near the beginning, then Ctrl-stretch the end left or right to match the speed. Note that you want to set Vegas to "lock pitch to stretch" rather than maintain the pitch.

Or have you already done this and are finding that it moves out of sync in the middle?
musicvid10 wrote on 9/16/2014, 11:18 AM
It's clock drift, not sample rate. Vegas handles the latter automatically.
I don't like any of the artifacting that occurs with time stretch.

A lengthy, but effective process, is to break the external audio track into ~10 minute chunks. Make your cuts ONLY in quiet areas, and precisely at zero crossings. If you don't know what this means, look it up. It is critically important. Then lock the reference track and use Pluraleyes to precisely sync each chunk. Once mixed, if you can detect mini-gaps (you shouldn't), you can add a little copied ambience to fill. If there are little overlaps, they will crossfade automatically.

Problem solved, no artifacting.

Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 12:48 PM
Yes I have tried doing that. unfortunately 10-minute segments won't do it. There's something else happening.. It gets out of sync in a few seconds and between words. The phrasing is goofy. Get a word in sync and the next one occurs before it should. I try stretching a short segment and discover the spacing between words as well as the words themselves are unmatchable. I think this is real strange.

Since I haven't noticed artifacts when I stretch it, I was thinking about going between house sound, on camera recording, and ambient which on this 90 minute program is going to be a lot of work. Fortunately, this isn't a ballet or I'd just be screwed. Lessons learned: Next time I'll provide my own recorder.

Thanks,
Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 12:51 PM
"Lock pitch to stretch". Let me try that
Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 1:18 PM
Lock Pitch to Step. Where is that?
Arthur.S wrote on 9/16/2014, 1:25 PM
That's bizarre Rick. I've never heard of anything going out of sync in a few secs. To be moving at that speed, surely it sounds like the wrong pitch? When I used to use a mini-disc recorder, I'd do similar to what MV10 suggests, but even that would sync for maybe 30mins at least!

Have you tried syncing in anything else other than Vegas?
Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 1:43 PM
Arthur, I have premier but I don't know how to use it. Should I start the learning curve now? I think I'll muddle through. too bad too. the audio sound great its just impossible to match.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/16/2014, 2:07 PM
Sounds like the board op who recorded that for you had some form of "skip silence" feature enabled. If that's the case, there is nothing practical that will fix it for you afaik.
Chienworks wrote on 9/16/2014, 2:09 PM
"Lock pitch to stretch"

Right-mouse-button click on the audio event and choose Properties. In the properties window choose a time stretch / pitch shift method and then various options & parameters appear. "Lock to stretch" will be one of them.
Chienworks wrote on 9/16/2014, 2:11 PM
"It gets out of sync in a few seconds and between words. The phrasing is goofy. Get a word in sync and the next one occurs before it should."

I wonder if the house recording used something that automatically edited out quiet gaps.
Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 2:20 PM
I'm wondering if that might be the case. I'm trying to sync it word by word. It doesn't help he's speaking in Nez Perce. Using 'elastic' and 'lock to pitch' seems to help.

All is not lost and I'll get this done. I've learned my lesson. Why do lessons always involve a certain amount of suffering?
Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 3:06 PM
well...I think I found the problem....

My young helpful friend has been recording every performance and there's been five of them. So what are the chances he simply gave me a recording of the wrong performance? Pretty good I'd say, and that would explain pretty much everything.

Now I'm thinking this is not a technical issue. Thanks for the help.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/16/2014, 3:32 PM
Reminds me of the arts school principal who tried to salvage a miserable, but expensive production of "West Side Story" by combining video and audio tracks from three separate shows. Of course, the result was worse than any single performance could possibly have been. Moral? He eventually resigned his job.
riredale wrote on 9/16/2014, 5:39 PM
Rick Kersey: Pretty good story, I'll bet that's what happened.

But it IS possible to laboriously paste together an audio track from another performance. Several years ago, I recorded a local choir performance of the Durufle "Requiem" with a dozen musicians. Then, about two months later, I recorded the same choir in a different venue but this time only with a wonderful pipe organ accompaniment. I debated which performance to burn to CD, finally realized that I could use both by regarding one as the master and cutting up the second one every few seconds and stretchng/shrinking to match. I used the "Elastique" utility which can do its magic without objectionable artifacts. The results were remarkable--really, really good. An 80-member choir complete with great accompaniment and pipe organ.

By the way, this was syncing two audio tracks. It would be much harder, in my opinion, to sync different audio to just video of spoken parts--the lip syncing would probably drive me insane.
Rick Kersey wrote on 9/16/2014, 9:27 PM
Yes, and in this case parts of it are in a native North American Indian language.

One way or another I'll make it work. Took a while to figure it out. You'd think it would be obvious.
Arthur.S wrote on 9/17/2014, 1:10 PM
From the sounds of it Rick, I'd bet you're right. No wonder you're trying to do the impossible LOL :-)
Has he got the right one left?
Geoff_Wood wrote on 9/17/2014, 8:44 PM
.... short of splitting every few words and dragging to line up. Last resort .....


geoff