5.1 - How Deep Is The Water

MichaelS wrote on 10/2/2004, 8:20 AM
I've been handed an interesting opportunity to produce a 5.1 DVD of "Peter and the Wolf", featuring full orchestra and narrator. The location is familiar and I know I will get full cooperation from all involved. The video aspect is not of concern right now. This DVD production will not be for resale, but more as a learning experience for me.

Equipment is not really an issue. An assortment of high quality mics, etc., are readily available

The setup: Orchestra On Stage, Narrator Stage Left. The auditorium is 900 seat arts center (a great performance venue with amazing acoustics).

Can anyone offer their experience or advice on mic placement, mixing and aural placement of the various tracks, etc.

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 10/2/2004, 8:44 AM
It's not that deep.
You're best off, of course, if you can record to multi-track.
Trying to get a live mix as a mixed 5.1 track is difficult under the best of circumstances, unless you've got a lot of lead time to test, test, and test more.
A narrator mic, with whatever is required to create a stereo mix of the orchestra, but this is often a series of 4 mics, one to a section, all routed to 2 separate buses. Then you'll likely want a 'booster' track for the LFE, micing tympani's, and any other low end instrumentation for those "boom" moments.
Then a couple mics picking up house reflection/resonance. Were it me, I'd use a couple cheaters at mid to 3/4's house pointing toward the stage.
You'll need to test placements with headphones or have the chance to at least check some mixes, but again, recording to multiple tracks will be your best option.
I've never done 5.1 with a symphony, but have done a fair amount of symphony, and a fair amount of 5.1. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir stuff we did for the Olympics was all 5.1 and it took quite a bit of testing to get it right.
riredale wrote on 10/2/2004, 8:49 AM
I'm just an amateur, but shot my latest choir documentary in Austria last summer in surround. It's really easy; just point two extra directional mics rearward to capture the acoustics and applause, and you can do what you want with the extra tracks. I used Minidisc to record the rear audio; next time I might use an old DV camera just to get timecode.

Setting Vegas up for 5.1 is really easy, too. There is an extra hassle factor: if you sync up the surround at the beginning with the master audio, it means you'll have to be lugging an extra stereo track around through the editing process. The alternative is to leave the surround part of the project until you're pretty much finished, and then go back and manually copy and sync for each finished clip (not as hard as it sounds).

As for surround levels, take your pick. I notice that Hollywood uses surround in major releases very sparingly, but I've come to prefer using it at full "you are there" levels. You also need to decide how you want the surround tracks to be used for people without surround setups at home; the Dolby encoder can mix in the surround in several different ways. If your front channels are very dry of acoustics, you'd probably want some surround mixed in. If the front channels sound great just by themselves, then you're home free.

Again, I've never been "paid" for my work, so I guess you should take these comments with a grain of salt.
Laurence wrote on 10/2/2004, 9:38 AM
How feasable would it be to shoot a stage show with something like the new Sony HDV camera with the camera just pointed at the overall stage then follow the action while you're editing, panning and scanning in Vegas, then outputting results to standard definition DVD.

I know they do something like that (but far more high end) on some sports coverage these days.
Spot|DSE wrote on 10/2/2004, 9:43 AM
Repeat after me:
Camera microphones suck
Camera microphones suck
Camera microphones suck
Camera microphones suck
Camera microphones suck
Camera microphones suck
And I'll never use one unless absolutely forced to.

Of course, the extremely severe loss of quality/resolution due to such tight pans/scans goes without saying.
B.Verlik wrote on 10/2/2004, 12:46 PM
Ditto to what Spot said.
MyST wrote on 10/2/2004, 6:40 PM
One thing I've noticed (and appreciate) about Spot's replies is they're usually direct to the point and "fat-free".
Spot, you might want to do a search on the internet for "beating around the bush", cuz I doubt you ever heard of the term! ;-)
Sidenote: Some porn sites might pop-up as results. Nuthin' to do with what I'm talkin' about!

Mario
Spot|DSE wrote on 10/2/2004, 6:43 PM
I don't mean to be short....with moderating over 20 websites and being a small part of a couple communities like this one, I just tend to not often be verbose. Get me in person, I never shut up. My mouth doesn't get sore as fast as my fingers. :-)
farss wrote on 10/3/2004, 6:42 AM
Could I also add:
Camera preamps / limiters such too.

I just got back from shooting an audition tape for a shool kid. Didn't want to lug a whole lot of gear as this wasn't a high paying job so I fed the NT1 into a Beachtec and then into the camera, well better than the on camera mics but way, way worse than the same going into the Firewire 410 and a laptop.

Someone I saw makes a mic for recording 5.1, think I saw it at IBC last year, probably costs a motsa and then you'd need something to record onto, HHB make a suitable bit of gear that records many tracks onto DVD RAM, but being HHB I'm certain it costs. Fostex also do a unit as well and there's a few others. I'd also imagine that with such a mic placement would be crucial.
But then you hit the nasty snag that Vegas cannot handle BWF files.
I'm hoping there's a way around this, surely someone has a simple utility that'll split BWFs into seperate WAV files?
Spot|DSE wrote on 10/3/2004, 6:59 AM
http://www.thozie.de/avimaster/ converts BWF to .wav.
I've never used it, but it's recommended on the broadcast boards. In the PC world, doesn't seem like there are many apps to do this. On the Apple side, there are several.
farss wrote on 10/3/2004, 8:02 AM
SPOT,
thanx for that, it sure doesn't look that user friendly but I'll give it a spin when I've got a moment. I downloaded the test EBU BWF file from the EBU site a few weeks ago so I'll try it on that although I think the EBU test file is only two tracks, still if it works that's got the Fostex FR-2 covered.

Bob.
MichaelS wrote on 10/3/2004, 10:45 AM
Since "Peter and the Wolf" is written such that individual instruments represent characters, it would be very difficult to "close mic" each featured part. Instead, for simplicity's sake, I'm going to take a chance by miking the music as a full orchestral performance.

My current plan for producing the event is as follows:

Video:
Camera 1 - Fixed on narrator.
Camera 2 - Wide on orchestra.
Camera 3 - Closeups on orchestra.

Audio:
Camera 1 Channel 1 - Narrator, Shure SM58
Camera 1 Channel 2 - Shotgun to Narrator

Camera 2 Channel 1 - Stereo Left, Back of auditorium, backup audio
Camera 2 Channel 2 - Stereo Right, Back of auditorium, backup audio

Camera 3 Channel 1 - Stereo Left, Front of stage, backup audio
Camera 3 Channel 2 - Stereo Right, Front of stage, backup audio

Multitrack Setup:
Mackie 1402 VLZ Mixer
Motu 828mkII Digial audio interface
3.06 HT laptop
Sony Vegas to record multitrack audio

Front Mics, X-Y Config., Rode NT-1's
Rear Mics, Wide Config., Audio Technica 3035's
Narrator, EV RE-1 Wireless Lavalier
LF, Tympani, etc. - Shure SM58's as needed

I'll video sync with a flash once all cameras are rolling. Audio sync between multitrack and video will be by wave form match with the narrator's lavalier and the SM58 to Camera 1

Any other ideas?

wobblyboy wrote on 10/3/2004, 12:42 PM
I have had good luck with placing condenser mics in proximity of the different sections (strings, horns, drums etc.). Mic on the narrator, and mics for solo performance and one or two mics for audience. Usually runs 12 to 16 tracks. I would do a stereo mix as this is closer to actual experience. However a surround mix could be effective if not overdone. I usually record to two ADATS (16 tracks) and download to Vegas through MOTU 2408. If you are doing video, it would be a good idea to have multi cameras to allow different perspectives for visual interest. Good luck.
wobblyboy wrote on 10/3/2004, 12:51 PM
If you can hang mics over orchestra instead of in the back of the auditorium you may eliminate some unwanted audience noise.
RichMacDonald wrote on 10/4/2004, 7:45 AM
Wendy Carlos has an interesting article about this here. What a fantastic opportunity for you.
Steve Mann wrote on 10/4/2004, 10:43 PM
I have a very valid use for the on-camera mic. To sync my "clap" at the start of the roll. After I've synchronized my real audio, the on-camera audio track goes away.

Steve