50 min DVD render in sections?

johnmeyer wrote on 3/10/2006, 9:52 AM

I believe that ANY project you do should be done in sections. I think most other people work this way as well which is why the "nested VEG" feature has been named a favorite feature by so many people in the current "best Vegas feature" thread.

However, Sony still has not included all the features necessary to let you easily combine multiple MPEG-2 renders into single DVD Architect project. As it stands now, you have two options:

1. Drop the multiple MPEG-2 files into a project, and then link them via End Actions. This works just fine, but DVDA creates a separate titleset for each MPEG-2 file. Virtually no DVD player will let you navigate backwards through these titlesets, without going back to a menu, and only some will let you navigate forward. The fast forward and fast reverse scan on your remote will definitely not work across the titleset boundaries.

2. Put all the MPEG-2 files into a "Music Compilation." This comes close to what you want, and you can navigate the resulting DVD using the chapter and scan controls. However, it doesn't appear that Sony actually combines the multiple MPEG-2 into one single file prior to creating the DVD, so there is still a slight hesitation when playing between the MPEG-2 files. In addition, the nature of a Music Compilation prohibits you from adding additional chapter stops in the middle of any of the MPEG-2 files, although it does add a chapter stop at the beginning of each file. Thus, you are limited as to what you can do for navigation.

The alternative is to use an external program like Womble's MPEG-VCR or MPEG Video Wizard to combine the multiple MPEG-2 files into one single file prior to importing into DVD Architect. Unfortunately, as good as Womble's products are, I have found some very subtle problems in the DVDs created using files that have been combined, primarily in the timing of chapter stops, subtitles, etc. DVD already has a problem setting chapter stops exactly where you place them on the timeline (the actual chapter stop is often placed several frames before or after where you actually place them on the timeline), and using the Womble-created MPEG-2 file often makes this problem worse.

I have been writing letters to Sony and posting in these forums for the need to include MPEG-2 joining, both in Vegas and in DVD Architect, for over two years (closer to three, actually), but it is clear that they don't consider this to be an important issue. Too bad. As I've stated many, many times, ability to handle MPEG-2 files with aplomb is essential to the future of video editing. Many people think I am asking for MPEG-2 editing and always respond how brain-dead an idea that is. I agree. I don't want Vegas to edit MPEG-2 in some sort of native way. The ONLY thing I want is the ability to cut and join MPEG-2 without recompressing the source except at the few frames around the cut. This is an absolutely trivial feature if you already have the code that does MPEG-2 compression (which Sony obviously does). The effort is not measured in man-years, or man-months, or even man-weeks. This is a man-day (or woman-day) effort.

garo wrote on 3/10/2006, 10:24 AM

Thanks John, that gives me some facts to consider. Now how do you other folks do it?

//Garo

rs170a wrote on 3/10/2006, 10:46 AM

I've been doing this (recording plays at my kids' school) and making DVDs of them for the last few years. The plays are between 1.5 to 2 hr. and I render as one continous clip. I do a lot of checking before I commit to the render and only got messed up once. Fixed it up, another overnight render and I was done.

Mike

B.Verlik wrote on 3/10/2006, 11:15 AM

1st you have to plan the entire video. Because you'll have to render an AC3 of the whole video separately. So place your video on the timeline and figure where you want to make your divisions, for making sections, but don't move the clips, just make your splits. Write down the frame numbers of each clip, because the last frame of a clip will become the 1st frame in the next section. (the last frame is not included when rendering). When you render an AC3, just start from the 1st frame and go to the last frame of the entire video. When you stitch the mpegs together they should match up fine.
I have been using TMPGEnc's MPEG tools (Pegasys) to merge my mpegs together and as long as I don't write something down wrong, it works great. (does it fairly quickly too) The one thing I can't do, is stitch ac3s together. Maybe a newer version of TMPGEnc can do this, but I haven't looked into it.
Mines about 3 years old.
I haven't had any problems with audio/video sync, or missing frames or anything except not knowing why the .avi says the length is one thing and when it's an mpeg, it says something slightly shorter. The ac3s always match.
If anybody's heard of a way to stitch ac3s together, please share the info.

johnmeyer wrote on 3/10/2006, 11:22 AM

Because you'll have to render an AC3 of the whole video separately.

I may not be understanding what you are saying here. If I render my project into four separate MPEG-2 files, I always render the corresponding AC-3 files for each MPEG-2. Thus, I have four MPEG-2 files, and four matching AC-3 files. This works just fine.

Like I said, I think I am not understanding you correctly.

B.Verlik wrote on 3/10/2006, 11:39 AM

Well, you said you have a number of ways of putting DVDs together, maybe that works fine for you, but if I want all the clips on one long title, that's the way it has to be done. No hesitations between clips and I can rip the DVD later as one title. If I could make the ac3s stitch together, then I could avoid the step of having to render a separate ac3 of the entire video.
I discovered, after making separate titles for each song, that I wanted to stitch all the separate titles together and make it one long title again (the concert). This way, I could archive single songs or the whole show. But I wanted either as one title.
I hope that makes sense. (I didn't want to rerender another mpeg2 of the entire show, when each song was already done.) It's a pain to render a separate ac3, but it's fairly quick too. Just keep your notes straight. One single Title was the goal

craftech wrote on 3/10/2006, 11:54 AM

I do stage productions almost exclusively. The solution is simple. Two DVD's. They don't cost that much and virtually all the hassles and potential mistakes disappear. I don't understand people's reluctance to do this or people's insistance on buying unreliable dual layer discs or people accepting lower quality by trying to jam 2 hours on a single layer disc. The discs are less than 50 cents each and the dual DVD cases cost around the same as the single DVD cases. Act 1 on one DVD and Act 2 on the other. Easy.

John

B.Verlik wrote on 3/10/2006, 12:06 PM

I don't think this has anything to do with trying to cram more information on a disc. It's that a lot of us would like to be able to render short sections at a time, to check our work. Then be able to put them back together as one long video.
My solution, which may not be the only one, was to keep each section from hestitating for a second or two before playing. But I like high quality renders and most often use a very high 7000, 2-pass VBR average for most of my stuff. (about 85 min. max)
Also, most of us, as dumb as it sounds, want our DVDs to work just like regular Hollywood made DVDs.

johnmeyer wrote on 3/10/2006, 12:31 PM

I don't think this has anything to do with trying to cram more information on a disc.

This is definitely correct. The original post was about trying to break the workflow down into smaller pieces, which is how software is designed, and how video is usually produced. The nested VEG feature provides a very important tool to let you do this, and if you are doing everything at once, clearly the way to go is to do your separate pieces of the project and then, when you are ready to create the MPEG-2 and AC-3, drop all the VEG files on the timeline and render.

Where this gets tough is when your project consists of things you did three months ago as well as current stuff. Depending on your workflow, storage capacity, work habits, etc., you may not have all the original AVI files that those VEG files point to, but you almost certainly have either the MPEG-2 or the VOB files. You then want to re-purpose this content. I do it all the time, where I'll grab some VOBs off various discs, put them in Womble, get the parts I want, stitch them together, and create a DVD. No loss in quality -- I don't usually even have to copy the entire DVD to the hard drive -- I just put the VOBs directly on the Womble timeline, and then have it cut the pieces I want, stitch them together, and put the result on my hard disk. Very fast workflow.

With Vegas 6.0c and beyond, you can put the VOBs on the timeline, but any cutting you do will result in re-compression, which is a big, big no-no. Vegas is so close to having it right. Hopefully, Sony will see the light and add the no-re-compression feature to MPEG-2 when doing cuts-only, just like it's always been for DV AVI (yes, they will still have to re-compress a few frames at the edit points, but that's really minor stuff).

fldave wrote on 3/10/2006, 3:45 PM

I prefer the single mpg file for the whole video. I have tried it both ways, and most of the multiple mpg DVD's I've done hesitate noticably on most players. I have one old Panasonic DVD player that takes forever to switch between clips. One Sony that I have you can't notice it.

I use Nested vegs all the time. If it gets too complicated, or one clip requires lots of effects/transitions, I'll just render that sub veg into an avi then switch into it's parent project.

craftech wrote on 3/11/2006, 5:59 AM

I don't think this has anything to do with trying to cram more information on a disc.

This is definitely correct. The original post was about trying to break the workflow down into smaller pieces,
======================

I don't think so. Here is what he said:

"Somehow it seems less imtimidating than having the WHOLE PROJECT rendered out to the final (large) file only to discover some glitches or problems with a scene or two"

It sounds like he plans to make one large file of the whole play in the end. He wouldn't be doing that unless he plans to put it all on one DVD.
Since he never got back to this thread I guess we won't know for sure, but the suggestions that follow wouldn't be as necessary if this were split into two veg files each under an hour and each subsequently turned into a DVD. A few loop renders would be all that is necessary as he went along.

John

garo wrote on 3/11/2006, 7:37 AM

The total play is about 35 minutes so there is no question as to whether it will fit on a single DVD or not. Rather I am curious as to how to edit it in increments so as to be able to say OK that's cool and ready so far now to the next chapter - there are silence, waiting passages that would enable me to "sew" together divisions edited separetly if there is, in fact a practical soultion to working in that method or just wing it in it's entirety. I am in fact lurking and reading the responces.
Thanks all so far!

//Gar

craftech wrote on 3/11/2006, 9:01 AM

If it's that short don't even bother with all this stuff. Just "wing it in it's entirety" as you said.
Is this the three camera stage production you talked about in the other thread? That short? That's even short for an elementary school play.

John

Catwell wrote on 3/11/2006, 9:22 AM

I record music recitals. Usually between 45 minutes and 2 hours. I always work in sections but I do that in Vegas. I will edit either one piece or one movement at a time. I will choose which camera, add transitions and remove excess and then sync my external sound track. I render this out to either AVI DV or YUC. When all the parts are complete I create a new vegas project and string the parts together. This is where I add the titles and the transition between the pieces. This project is what I render to MPEG for DVD A. Yes I do risk having to go back and rerender the whole project but I always double check my spelling and the overall video. I always watch the entire video before I render. I also create a Main title sequence that I render as a seperate MPEG and use as a first play on the DVD.

Yes, I have had to rerender several times, I am a bit of a perfectionist.

Charlie

B.Verlik wrote on 3/11/2006, 1:13 PM

I'm throwing this log back on the fire:
Is there a way to stitch ac3s together? (without creating more problems)

johnmeyer wrote on 3/11/2006, 5:07 PM

Is there a way to stitch ac3s together? (without creating more problems)

I do it all the time in Womble's products. This is the same set of products that let you stitch MPEG-2. You can put VOB files directly on the timeline (which contain AC-3 files) and do cuts-only editing without re-compressing anything, except for a few frames around each edit point (because the GOP needs to be re-constructed, unless you happen to cut on a frame that is also a GOP boundary).

B.Verlik wrote on 3/11/2006, 6:48 PM

I sort of assumed, from your previous post, that you were able to stitch ac3s, but you complained about problems with the chapter markers and how the timing of a chapter stops. Can't these finished mpegs be dragged into DVD-A and had chapters added exactly where you want?
(I can usually get a chapter on the exact frame I want with DVD-A.)
Except for the additional 'whole video' ac3 render, TMPGEnc's MPEG tools merges the mpegs together just great and I can add chapters exactly where I want. But I do it in DVD-A. I can advance 1 frame at a time on the chapter insert page, using Alt +L/R arrows. They appear to stay where I put them. (unless there's less than 1 second between chapters.)