60p Forever!

Crellin Sound wrote on 3/27/2012, 5:49 AM
Howdy,

I'm still getting used to digital, so forgive me if I ask bone-headed questions.

Generally, I shoot in 24p. 60p works well too, though, when I'd like to have something in slow motion. If I decide that slow motion doesn't work, I just speed it up.

Other than file size, is there any reason not to shoot everything that doesn't have a critical audio track in 60p? It seems like that would give me more flexibility in editing, particularly if I'd like to slow something down and don't predict that ahead of time.

Thanks,

BT

Comments

Steve Grisetti wrote on 3/27/2012, 12:42 PM
The main handicap in shooting in 1080p (and that includes 60p, 24p and 50p) is that technically 1920x1080p isn't supported by Vegas Movie Studio. And that means three things:

1) Even if you put 60p in, the program is digesting and conforming it to 60i, if you edit it in Vegas Movie Studio. So you get none of the benefits of those extra frames of video. It's still just 60i video, as far as Vegas Movie Studio is concerned;

2) Because it's impossible to match your project properties to this format, your program will constantly be rendering it on the fly as you work, so it will put a lot more burden on your hardware than a supported format, like 60i would; and

3) Even if you output 60p from your project, it will not be the original 60p footage, since, as a said in (1), the program has already converted it into 60i as part of its workflow. So rather than getting the full 60p effect, your output footage from Vegas Movie Studio will actually be just 30 frames per second, but each frame will be duplicated to create 60.
Crellin Sound wrote on 3/28/2012, 10:30 AM
This is interesting. Tell me more.

When you say that 1920x1080p isn't supported, what do you mean? There's a properties selection for 1920x1080 at 23.976 fps with the default as progressive, which is what comes out of my camera.

Have we all been duped?

How did you find out that 60p is converted to 60i as part of the workflow?

Thanks,

BT
Chienworks wrote on 3/28/2012, 11:37 AM
Looks like i can set up a 60p project and import 60p media and it stays 60p. However, when i try creating an MPEG2 60p render template the render crashes and Vegas goes *poof*.
Steve Grisetti wrote on 3/28/2012, 1:29 PM
How are you setting up a 1920x1080 60p project, Chienworks?

It's not an option for a new project that I can see.
Chienworks wrote on 3/28/2012, 1:40 PM
Pick anything close. I chose 1920x1080 60i, then changed the field order to None (progressive). Voila.
Steve Grisetti wrote on 3/28/2012, 2:18 PM
But wouldn't that give you 30p? (60i is, after all, only ~30 interlaced fps.)
Chienworks wrote on 3/28/2012, 2:30 PM
No. If the frame rate is 59.94, then the frame rate is 59.94. Set it to progressive and you get 59.94 progressive frames per second.

60i is not 30 frames interlaced. 60i is 60 frames interlaced, which results in 120 fields per second. 30 frames interlaced (60 fields per second) is 30i.
Steve Grisetti wrote on 3/28/2012, 4:27 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you about 60i, Chienworks. 60i is based on the North American TV standard of 30 frames per second (actually 29.97 fps), created in 60 interlaced frames, each set of two frames creating a single frame.

So I'm very surprised to hear that Vegas Movie Studio is capable of creating 60 full frames per second at 1920x1080 (though I know it can at 1280x720).

I believe you if you say it's possible and that this tweak makes your project 100% compatible with Full AVCHD 60p. I'm just surprised.
Chienworks wrote on 3/28/2012, 4:39 PM
Vegas is format agnostic. You can create a 1732x1448 51.7fps progressive project if you want to.

But, the thing is, if you set the frame rate for 60 and interlaced then you get 120 interlaced fields per second. If you want 60 interlaced fields per second then you set the frame rate for 30 interlaced.

"60i" is an extremely poor way of saying 30fps interlaced, especially when you consider that 24p and 24i are both 24 frames per second, and 25p and 25i are both 25 frames per second.
Crellin Sound wrote on 3/30/2012, 8:10 AM
Hi Guys,

It sure would be good if Vegas is format agnostic. But I’m confused, so let’s try to straighten me out.

I'd like to revisit Steve's comment: The main handicap in shooting in 1080p (and that includes 60p, 24p and 50p) is that technically 1920x1080p isn't supported by Vegas Movie Studio.

And then Steve went on to say: Even if you put 60p in, the program is digesting and conforming it to 60i, if you edit it in Vegas Movie Studio. So you get none of the benefits of those extra frames of video. It's still just 60i video, as far as Vegas Movie Studio is concerned;

There is a project setting for 1929x1080 at 24p. All the sub-settings make it look like it's Progressive, too. I wish I could send you a screen shot of the settings.

If I choose 24p and import 60p footage, does Vegas really render at 60i? Or does it render at 60p like I’d want it to?

Let's go back to my question. If the rendering is actually in 60p and in light of all that you’ve both said, would it be better to shoot scenery (like fields of wheat waving in the wind )at 60p and import to a 24p project? Seems like it might be. Everything would be slow-motion, but that’s good and I can always speed it up if I have to.

Chienworks – did you ever get your MPEG2 60p render template to work?

Thanks,

BT

AlanADale wrote on 3/31/2012, 4:18 PM
Just bumping this post because I'm sure that Crellin would like his question answered and it's also got me intrigued as well considering I can find the same project setting as he mentions.
Steve Grisetti wrote on 3/31/2012, 4:33 PM
Well, there's a simple test.

Set up a project for 60p, per Chienworks suggestion. Then place a video clip on the timeline and zoom in until you can see the individual frames. (You can even right-click on the timeline and set the grid pattern to individual frames if you'd like.)

Is each frame unique?

When I used Chienworks suggestion, I see 60 frames every second -- but the frame counter along the top of the timeline only lists 29 frames between each second.

If anyone can confirm that they're seeing 60 unique, individual frames in every second on a 1920x1080 timeline, then the solution works.

Chienworks is one of the brightest contributors to this forum, so I virtually always bow to his (or her) expertise. But this one I'll need to see to believe.
Crellin Sound wrote on 4/1/2012, 5:02 AM
Howdy Boy Atlantis,

I sure wish I could attach a screen shot. If anybody knows how to do that, let me know.

I'm using VMS Platinum 11 (build295), if that helps.

If I open a new project and choose NTSC and AVCHD from the dialogue box, the 1920x1080 - 24p setting is the second one from the top.

Alternatively, if I open an established project and go to Project/Properties and then click on Template, I see 1920x1080p at the bottom of the drop down list. The default frame rate is 23.97 and the default scan is None (progressive).

Then again, I've been known to miss things before. What am I missing here?

Crellin

Chienworks wrote on 4/1/2012, 9:06 AM
Steve, i noticed the same thing: 60 individual frames but the timecode counter only incremented every other frame.
Steve Grisetti wrote on 4/1/2012, 3:29 PM
I'll take your word for it, Chien. I don't have any 60p footage to test it with.

Thanks for your solution!
big daddy wrote on 4/2/2012, 11:15 PM
Make sure you change the timecode display format from the default SMPTE 29.97fps video to "time and frames." That will provide time tracking of arbitrary frames based on the source material definition. So if you do have 59.94p material you will see all 59 frames over any one second interval.