720/60p downconvert to SD

Bob Chandler wrote on 7/8/2010, 4:16 PM
Issue:
I feel I'm getting motion blur on my downconverted wedding videos to SD. Motion blur with camera still and subject walking, etc., and motion blur with slow pans. I never had this when shooting with my Sony PD-150, but now find it shooting with a new Pani 150. I believe I'm providing all the info needed if someone could help me figure out the source of the issue. (I'm sure it's me!)

Pani AG HMC-150: Recording at 720/60P, Shutter 1/60

Template Properties:
>Custom (1280x720, 59.940 fps) –Using “Match Media Settings” and then selecting one of my clips.
>Field Order: “None (Progressive Scan)”
>Pixel Aspect Ratio: “1.0000 (Square)”
>Frame Rate: “59.940 (Double NTSC)”
>Pixel Format: “8-bit”
>Full Resolution: “Best”
>Motion Blur Type: “Gaussian”
>De-Interlace: “None”

Clip Info:
Format: “AVC”
Attributes: “1280x720x12”
Frame Rate: “59.940 (Double NTSC)”
Field Order:”None (Progressive Scan)”

Rendered As:
MPEG 2
Template: “DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen”
Description: “Video:29.970 fps, 720x480 Progressive, YUV, 6Mbps, pixel aspect ratio 1.212

. Any thoughts as to what I might be doing wrong would be appreciated.

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 7/8/2010, 5:49 PM
At first glance, I don't see anything wrong with your settings, except you "might" try an interlaced render, just to see if it makes a difference (even though it isn't really).

Also, try a CBR or 2-pass VBR render to see if that affects it (you didn't say how long your project is.

Can you upload a short clip of your camera footage somewhere?
fldave wrote on 7/8/2010, 5:55 PM
Set project properties "Deinterlace" setting to either "Interpolate" if there is a lot of fast movement, or "Blend" if there is normal movement in the footage.

Even though your project is Progressive, I think it has been proven that "None" is flawed, and Vegas uses this setting internally for other processing?
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/8/2010, 6:39 PM
musicvid

Thanks. Any suggestions as to where to upload it to, and at what settings? I'm guessing YouTube, but I haven't much experience with that.

Bob
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/8/2010, 6:41 PM
flDave

Thanks. Project is approx. 2.5 hours. Can that really affect the blurring though?

Also, can you or anyone else suggest another format to shoot at other than 720/60P at 1/60 that might improve this issue?

Thanks

Bob
Andy_L wrote on 7/8/2010, 6:47 PM
try disabling smart resample in clip properties. Vegas may be trying to interpolate frames.
fldave wrote on 7/8/2010, 6:49 PM
Try a 5 minute section where you are having obvious issues. Try the Deinterlace Method settings and the Smart Resample settings to see if it improves.

Yes, people have had awful results with Deinterlace setting = "None"
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/8/2010, 6:57 PM
Andy L

Sorry....where do I find that?
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/8/2010, 6:58 PM
flDave

I will. It will take a little while. I'm assuming I should try each independently. And on the "Deinterlace" option, I'm guessing I should keep the "Field Order" still at "None-Progressive Scan"?
fldave wrote on 7/8/2010, 7:06 PM
Yes, field order = Progressive.

I wouldn't "stretch" to fit output size either. There is a slight difference of aspect ratios between HD and SD. A very very slight letterboxing shouldn't be an issue.
Andy_L wrote on 7/8/2010, 7:49 PM
right-click each individual clip on the timeline and select properties. Alternately, select a group of clips on the timeline, go to the edit menu, and select switches.

I'm curious if this will help. Vegas' smart resample doesn't always act the way I'd expect.
musicvid10 wrote on 7/8/2010, 8:19 PM
Bob,
No, use an upload service like mediafire, or FTP it binary mode to your own webspace.

I have no wish to view a converted video online. Once again, I would like to download it in its original native camera format, and play with it. Thanks.
fausseplanete wrote on 7/8/2010, 10:49 PM
Like AndyL said, disable Smart Resampling.

I had the same issue with 50p->50i:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=657060

All Pro editing apps deliberately have such features otherwise just anybody could use them...
JohnnyRoy wrote on 7/9/2010, 7:57 AM
> Also, can you or anyone else suggest another format to shoot at other than 720/60P at 1/60 that might improve this issue?

Yea, stop shooting 60p when you have no way to deliver it. Shoot 30p and your problems will be gone. In the mean time, as others have suggested, disable resampling and Vegas will through away half of the frames to make it 30p.

~jr
musicvid10 wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:13 AM
Lots of good ideas here. I'd still like to see that file . . .
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:48 AM
musicvd

I've not use mediafire, but I've signed up. What type of file do you want me to upload? I know you said you want to see it in its "original native camera format". Does this mean just my ACVHD clips, or rendered out via MPEG2? Forgive my ignorance....I know just enough to be dangerous.

Bob
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:49 AM
Didn't seem to affect much Andy. Then again, I'm watching this on the preview monitor. I'll need to burn this 3 minute intro I have and see if it looks better. I'll let you know.
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:51 AM
Thanks fausseplanete

smart sampling off. Let's see if I can get this file onto MediaFire so that all can see.
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:53 AM
Thanks JR

I was trying to shoot in 60P because I thought that would get me better still pics, and slo-mo, which I use a lot. Could you confirm that?

Thanks

Bob
musicvid10 wrote on 7/9/2010, 8:54 AM

"a short clip of your camera footage"

From the camera, Bob.
TeetimeNC wrote on 7/9/2010, 9:07 AM
Bob, I also have an HMC-150 and when I want to get good slomo I shoot 720p60. Then I load it into a 24p timeline and set the velocity to .4. That gives me frame accurate slomo - no generated frames, and it looks quite good.

The blurring you are seeing might be the 1/60 shutter speed you used. You would see blurring if you were shooting fast motion, just as you would if you were using a still camera. When I shot my golf swing I used a shutter speed of 1/1000. Obviously this requres bright sunlight and a relatively wide aperture to get the desired exposure, but I had little or no motion blur.

/jerry
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 10:05 AM
TeeTime

Thanks. That's what makes me wonder about using the 30P as earlier suggested, because my understanding is it is preferable to match your shutter speed with the fps. If I then use 30P with 1/30 shutter, the motion would get worse.

Your suggestion on slo-mo is intriquing yet I'm not sure what the steps would be to incorporate into the timeline. IE: mixing different properties on the timeline. I know you can do this, so here's my take what I should do:
1:Shoot 720/60P for anticipated slo-mo shots
2:Set up Vegas properties timeline for 24 p and set velocity to .4
3:Then (here's where I'm uncertain), incorporate that slo mo veg file (import it) into my 60P timeline? Will that work?

Love the monikor BTW, "TeeTime"
Bob Chandler wrote on 7/9/2010, 10:21 AM
musicvid

I'm loading some clips now. I think I do see an improvement by making some of these adjustments. I'm going to burn a DVD and look on the TV.

I'll let you know when these few clips are loaded.

Thanks, Bob
Andy_L wrote on 7/9/2010, 11:30 AM
Is there any evidence that the deinterlace setting affects how Vegas creates interlaced fields from progressive frames?
TeetimeNC wrote on 7/9/2010, 12:08 PM
There was an error in the example clip I had uploaded. I will attempt to correct it but am out of time this afternoon.

/jerry