Apple has been open about FCP licenses.

At last year's FCPUG-NAB, the number was 500,000.

Summer this year, I think 700,000 was the official number.

I doubt any of the others are close.

Vegas, no matter what you think, is not a very good editing program.

Now there's a cheap statement.

Liquid is a much more complex program than Vegas

Ho-ho-hooo.

"Now there's a cheap statement. "
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Yes, I quite agree with you... quite disrespectful.

Vegas is not a good program..on the other hand liquid is the one that seems to be struggling right now... I can't quite figure that one out.

"Liquid is a much more complex program than Vegas"

And of course more complex, harder to use is better - right?

"And of course more complex, harder to use is better - right?"
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Well, that's what the liquid board wants you to believe anyway
However Charlie White called it "OLD" in his review and Mike Jones called Avid products "Dinosaurs", so I guess it comes down to who you want to believe.

In fact... here's that review of liquid from Charlie White:

http://dvformat.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=36233

And I'm betting Adobe has 1,000,000+ licenses. Because they "whore" out the software, give it away to everybody, etc. More important then the # of copies floating around is the # of people USING it. Ms could easily say that MineSweeper is THE most popular game ever because it's on every copy of Windows... but a very very very very small fraction actually play.

Turnover is more important also. Take Vonage as an example: very small user base compared to land line phone companies but there is VERY few users leaving for "something better". 1 vonage customer = 1 customer for life. Same can't be said for Liquid or FCP.

Relax... no need to get into a "my NLE is better than yours" argument.

(Because we know Vegas is the better NLE. ;) )

Well there's at least 66 Vegas users that have used it for a total of 166 hours, 55 minutes and 43 seconds.
http://www.wakoopa.com/software/sony-vegas/

And ummm... at least 1 Liquid Edition user that has used it for a total of 6 minutes and 55 seconds.
http://www.wakoopa.com/software/liquid/

Glenn, I hear you.

"Liquid is a much more complex program than Vegas"
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So is FCP and Premier Pro. Thats EXACTLY why I'm using Vegas.

Then again I ride a http://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/honda/honda-silver-wing-ar26333.htmlHonda Silverwing[/link] scooter instead of a regular motorcycle. Automatic transmission, linked front and rear antilock brakes, 0 to 60 in a couple of seconds, enough storage space for two cameras and a compact tripod, way faster than I'm brave enough to ride ... I often stare at the other tough looking bikers in envy ... usually in the rear view mirror as I'm passing them! ;-)

"Vegas, no matter what you think, is not a very good editing program."

....is it just me or does anyone else find this sentence hilarious. This argument works for anything too:

Dockers, no matter what you think, are not very good pants.
Dogs, no matter what you think, are not mans best friend.
My argument, no matter what you think, makes no sense.

I'm going to say that you can not win an argument with a "no matter what you think" guy - It's like the Crane kick from Karate Kid...

There is no defense!!!

I'm a member of a film club. Each meeting roughly 50 people turn up.

*The majority use a flavour of Premiere (Pro or Elements).
*Quite a few use Pinnacle Studio
*At lease three use Casablanca machines
*At least two use Edius systems
*At leas two use Liquid (one is a beta tester and technical editor for Liquid products/books)
*Two use Magix Movie edit Pro
*And one used Vegas. Me.

No FCP users.

That's my experience.

I think PPro is going to be the one for everyone to watch out for. Interesting face off between PPro and FCP in the RED forum, last time I read through it FCP wasn't looking too flash. Adobe getting back into the OSX market could give Apple a lot of heartburn.

"Relax... no need to get into a "my NLE is better than yours" argument.

LOL. Probably won't get too many objections at this board. And it's all pretty silly really "mine is better than yours" in the end, for it come down to personal preferences and circumstances.

Case in point:

I'm a tiny minority of cases, but I still feel I have at least one good case for Vegas (reason why I got it after alot of online research):

--- Cost and Ease of Use:

I'm a person living on a limited fixed income but with a past background in graphics and design (2D and 3D). I had a copy of an old AE (3.1) I got cheap and legit, but just couldn't deal with it -- not GUI enough for a visually oriented person as I am.

Before I decided on Vegas, I went and asked for some input on what NLE to get at the local Academy of Entertainment and Technology in Santa Monica -- funded by almost all the major studios and a separate campus of the Santa Monica Community College.

Why? Because I had been admitted to it back in 1997 but decided not to continue for various reasons. Figured it was a good place to ask about something like this.

They as many other such institutions push the more expensive, well known apps and I got a sense of almost snobism that I'd even consider something like Vegas. Understandable in a way since the probably get their labs wired with Adobe and other apps for free.

That irked and depressed me for a bit, but then I had to remember:

I have to deal with what is and what I can afford. AND "little" people like me financially speaking use Vegas and do just fine. So do not-so-little pros. Having done music creation and editing in Steinberg SX, I felt at home with the interface's logical workflow.

I've never regretted that decision.
And most of us, be one film-maker or otherwise -- do start as "little people."

I have no pretenses of being a pro like most here, but I will confess that I sometimes blow myself away with what I pull off in Vegas. It's all about translating vision (and often on-the-fly inspiration) into reality. Real time previews are such a blessing.

Number of users, yeah, it's kind of intriguing. But what matters to me is...
What A lot.

.....it is being shifted from the Avid banner back to the pinnacle banner

lol,,,,kind a says it all

NLE preference is a subjective thing, always will be.
Right?
I like Honda.
You like Toyota.
Good for you.
Good for me.
But where Liquid's concerned we have to make an exception.
Kind of in a league of it's own,---like Lada or Yugo, if you will.
More complex, a tad harder to drive, clunky and ugly.
But there's a geat feeling of accomplishment when one makes it to one's destimation despite the break downs.
Still there are "avid" fans of this NLE.
Go figure.

>"Liquid is a much more complex program than Vegas"
>So is FCP and Premier Pro. Thats EXACTLY why I'm using Vegas.

You've got that right.

I've actually had the displeasure of testing, and at some point in my career, using every NLE out there (at least, everything mentioned in this thread so far).

Liquid is MOST CERTAINLY more complex than Vegas. But I need to be productive. If the output quality is the same (which it is in the digital realm), and one is easier to use than the other, then which are you going to choose?

Ultimately, I think the final argument is this: if you throw a rock and hit the dog, the dog barks. Methinks Vegas is probably starting to garner some much deserved attention from the competition. Most people don't feel the need to trash talk Corel Lumiere (anyone remember Lumiere?) because it's out the running. The only reason the SONY competitor's trash talk Vegas, is because it IS in the running. And no empire stands forever.

I still get a laugh when I shoot, cut, and render my video in quite literally HALF the time my colleagues in the media manage the same work on their mega-iBooks. We file through the same fibre connection. I'm done more quickly, and as LEAST as good (and often better, because the spare time allows me to correct color, sharpen a bit and add some finesse, where they just get their meatball cuts and go home).

I wish more people would just TRY Vegas. I was a dedicated Premiere user who switched to the abomination that is FCP. After playing with Vegas on the recommendation of a friend, I've never looked back. As long as Sony makes incremental improvements (and doesn't break anything) ... I'm with it until someone comes up with something better. And based on the direction of the competition, that's not very likely for a good long while.

It's so interesting watching people bag on and refer to Vegas as this little prosumer / wedding videographer NLE that couldn't POSSIBLY be used for serious work, as we edit our feature film with it. Our film was shot in HD and features one of the stars of ABC's "Lost", a regular on "Grey's Anatomy", an actress who finished our production to go shoot the latest Woody Allen film, and a child star who is now shooting the newest Will Ferrell film. And I could go on.... Vegas can be used for serious work. I know, because we use it for that.

AVID better think hard, and VERRRRY hard about approaching Sony to buy Vegas.

When we talk about big time studios, FCP, premiere or Vegas don't matter at all. They are completely irrelevant. It's all Avid, but high end ( expensive ).

Under $3000, though, AVID is failing miserably, and if they want to have any chance of doing anything about it, maybe Sony will sell them Vegas, and they can forget about Avid xpress pro and Liquid which are both nothing more than garbage that no sane person would install on their machine.

This way AVID could pick up the under $3000 market, judging from experience with XSI, they would leave Vegas developers alone to do what they do best ( basically give them resources and let them work, then market it ) Since AVID is in this business only, and Sony is in just about every other business, this would give Vegas a much stronger marketing.

Obviously, I don't know what Sony has planned, but Vegas in Avid's hands would kill off FCP and premiere within a year. AVID would rule the rest of the editing world, in the same way they rule big studio world right now, and Vegas would get all the marketing and funding it needed.

You never know, it is possible.

I really like editing with Vegas. It's the one I've used the most, so I'm quite familiar with it. I cut my teeth on Pinnacle Studio 7. All I know about that experience is that the program was about as unstable as they come. I don't know anything about the current Liquid software, so i can't comment on it or any Avid program.

And that's the point. Being ignorant of other NLE's keeps me from being an expert as to their capabilities. We all pound our chests with pride as to the program we use, but saying one is better than the other without actually knowing anything about it is foolish.

I deal with Avid all the time and there is NO WAY that I would want them owning Vegas. NO WAY! You thought the outcry when Sony bought Vegas from Sonic Foundry was loud!

There is a good chance ( if something like avid buying vegas ever happened ) they'd just stay out of the way of Vegas' development and simply provide funding and marketing. If they would try to "fix" it, then I wouldn't want them to touch it either. My xpress pro experience with them was short, but enough.

What does Vegas need anyway? It's already the best NLE under $3000. Add 10 bit color to satisfy those who need it. Maybe a couple of other minor tweaks, and that's it. Just adding AVID name to it is enough to convince everybody it's the best NLE ever created.

Do you think other people buy Avid xpress or FCP because those are actually better than Vegas? NO. They buy it because AVID has a name in the industry, and they buy FCP because papa Steve told them to do so. Otherwise these are apps that could be bundled for free with any hardware, There is absolutelly nothing special about them.

Is the attendance at the NAB2007 user group function any sort of an indication of how many users there are?? It seemed like everyone in the room was a Vegas user..... seemed like a pretty good 'industry' indication of how many pro's are using it .....how many did Liquid get at its(?) user group meeting?
I have P-Pro, FCP and have dabbled with Pinnacle versions..... and everytime I try to do anything in them I invariably end up going back to Vegas 'cos its simpler, quicker and 'cleaner' to do things. I usually stay out of these different apps discussions but this 'moderator' is obviously just out of school(polite way of saying he's ignorant).
We have used Vegas for many years producing hundreds of TVC's , usually with an animation or special effects theme, and I am continually amazed at how many formats, layers and complexities we ask it to handle and still get great and quick results.
We sell ourselves as a TVC Production Company, not an edit shop basing ourselves around a certain software/hardware package. Our clients have confidence when they see the Sony badge on the app, and see us work just as fast and professionally as when they are in other post companies. We have never had a bad comment based upon what we use, just the opposite... with a lot of clients being able to understand what we are doing because of the logical GUI.