Version 8 simply doesn't read the .MOV H.264 files correctly in that the video *does* import into the timeline, but the audio either doesn't import at all or doesn't play correctly or the files cause the program to crash right down to the ground.

This is a well-known, documented issue among users of Aiptek HD consumer camcorders and it has resulted in screams and screams for support for several months.

This is not unusual in the software world, I've noted.

For example, Corel/Ulead's VideoStudio 11 Plus has been literally inoperable following the installation of Diamond Multimedia's "One-Touch Video Capture" software for the VC500 USB 2.0 device for MONTHS and customers have been SCREAMING for help and -- so far -- no solution.

I'd like to know if Sony has listened to customers regarding the Aiptek .MOV issue.

Here's a link to a thread where you should be able to download the .MOV files about which I am speaking:

http://tinyurl.com/6ydrl6

I just tried these 1080i and 720p files, with Quicktime 7.5.5 and Platinum 9. They crash Platinum 9 every time. However, the files DO WORK on Vegas Pro 8. They are slow, but they don't crash Vegas Pro as easily.

While it's easy to put the blame to Sony or to Ulead about this, the truth is, the real blame is on Aiptek. Aiptek uses a non-editing version of AVC on their cameras. These files are delivery-grade codecs, not suitable for editing. It is not necessarily the job of a video editor to edit files that are not meant for editing. Should Aiptek (and Kodak) had used AVCHD, it would have been a better deal for everyone. The only editors that don't have a hard time with these files are Apple's editors, but that's only because Apple is transcoding them during import to the AIC codec which is also meant for editing. So Mac users end up editing in AIC instead of that AVC MOV format.

For now, all you can do is buy Cineform NeoHD or NeoHDV, and transcode the MOV files to Cineform AVI. Then, they edit as they should, as Cineform is meant for editing.

If you don't mind a bit of quality loss, you can use the freeware SUPER utility, to export your AVC MOV files in m2t HDV and edit that. At least you won't have to pay for Cineform.

I strongly disagree with you.

You express all of your opinions with great force so I'll be the devil's advocate here and tell you that I have used virtually every editing program on both Windows and Macintosh and what you've just said about the Aiptek H.264 .MOV files just isn't true.

These files open easily in Apple iMovie 08 and in Apple Final Cut Express 4 and in Apple Final Cut Studio.

In addition, the Corel/Ulead, Magix, Serif, and CyberLink programs *all* open the Aiptek H.264 .MOV files with absolutely no issues.

As I said, the problem with the Corel/Ulead program isn't Aiptek .MOV H.264 files; it's the incompatibility with the capture software that ships with the very simple Diamond Multimedia USB 2.0 capture device. This wouldn't be such a problem if tech support at Corel were to listen. But they don't listen.

And since you've just revealed -- thanks -- through your very much appreciated test that the Aiptek files are still crashing Vegas Movie Studio right down to the ground, I now know that Sony doesn't listen either.

The best consumer non-linear video editing companies *listen.*

So far, Magix, Serif, CyberLink seem to be doing the best job of listening.

Thanks again for your test. You just saved me $120.

>These files open easily in Apple iMovie 08 and in Apple Final Cut Express 4 and in Apple Final Cut Studio.

Please be careful of what I wrote above. All these apps are TRANSCODING the h.264 MOV files to AIC MOV for editing during the initial importing -- transparently to the user. Vegas is trying to edit the aiptek files directly, while no Apple app is doing so.

>In addition, the Corel/Ulead, Magix, Serif, and CyberLink programs *all* open the Aiptek H.264 .MOV files with absolutely no issues.

Yes, but how FAST are they to edit these files *natively*, as Vegas is trying to do?

Vegas Platinum simply has a stupid bug and crashes. This bug doesn't exist on Pro, which means that it might get fixed on Platinum as well. But this is beyond the point. The REAL problem is not the crash (which as I said one day will be fixed -- possibly with one line of code fix), but the editing experience of these files. Aiptek uses a format that's impossible to edit natively fast enough. I get 0.5 fps when trying to edit these files on my Pro. Aiptek (and Kodak) is selling these devices to people who don't usually edit. You are the exception, not the rule.

So given the fact that Vegas does not transcode these HD Aiptek files to m2t or Cineform during importing, like Apple does, EVEN if this crashing bug is fixed, editing will be a nightmare anyway.

I bought an Aiptek HD+ mainly for the low cost. We've already discussed this. The camcorder came with a very simple editor from Arcsoft that EDITS the files natively WITHOUT transcoding and re-encodes only the edited parts. Editing was just as fast as editing HDV in VMS9.

Now if some really small software company like Arcsoft can do it, so can every other software company on the planet.

Aiptek uses plain H.264 with AAC audio. I have no idea what is considered 'AVCHD', but H.264 and AAC are industry standards. I ended up taking the Aiptek back because of all the trouble with my editors and the Arcsoft just wasn't enough.

Personally, I hope AVCHD dies a quick death. Just too much hassle to edit. I ended up getting a great deal on a new Canon HV20 HDV camcorder. I certainly wouldn't recommend any AVCHD camcorder regardless or price or features.

Idaho - thanks for those links. I have some other software I can test those with. O no longer have any files I shot with the Aiptek. LOL

Good points. Eugenia, you're right about NeoHDV. I have it on one of my computers and it includes a software application called "HDLink" that does allow me to transcode the Aiptek .MOV files to Cineform intermediate files. But I can't afford to keep buying the Cineform codec for all of my computers. I have too many computers, perhaps. I'm currently experimenting with the free Huffy codec and... to my surprise... it seems to be working surprisingly well.

I've not tried the ArcSoft, ggrussell, but I plan to do just that to confirm what you've stated about "changes only" rendering. I'm quite curious about that.

Apple Final Cut Express 4 and Apple iMovie 08 -- you're quite correct, Eugenia -- transcode the H.264 long GOP files to I-frame "Apple Intermediate Codec" files. This codec does a reasonably good job of preserving the quality while making editing much easier. However, there's a file size penalty to pay.

The Apple Intermediate Codec works much like the Cineform codec does on Windows-based computers.

I'd have to take a closer look at Apple Final Cut Studio to be certain, but that application may be able to *natively* edit the H.264 files... I *know* it can natively edit HD MPEG-2.

I define *native* editing as not only the ability to import the files into the timeline directly, but --- MORE IMPORTANT --- the ability to confine any new rendering to "changes ONLY."

In that respect, neither Sony Vegas nor Corel/Ulead nor Magix nor CyberLink nor Serif can edit H.264 natively. They're all going to render every frame. If you tell me Sony Vegas has improved and can now smart render H.264, then I'll take a second look at this subject. But as far as I can tell, my version 8 certainly cannot.

I formerly thought native editing vs. transcode-to-intermediate was a debate that would be won by the native editing camp.

However, you may know that several of the Windows-based applications can already edit MPEG-2 -- both standard and high definition -- with so-called "smart rendering" -- supposedly true native editing utilizing the MainConcept SDK, in most cases.

While this technique does allow the user to edit standard and high definition MPEG-2 directly -- and with smart render -- I have noticed some critical problems with the implementation.

In Corel/Ulead and in Magix, for example, I've very carefully examined transition points only to discover tiny "glitches" or "digital noise" in/near cuts or in frames in the proximity of any kind of transition, which is a quality issue that defeats the entire idea of native editing. It's just a natural problem that arises when one attempts to edit long GOP vs. I-frame file types.

I've not noticed this problem in Apple Final Cut Studio -- with MPEG-2 -- but I haven't been quite as careful to really zoom in and scrutinize the images with that program. So maybe Apple has managed to do it right. I'll do some more checking.

The Sony Vegas applications seem to want to edit .M2TS files (transport streams) natively, but I think Sony also utilizes the MainConcept SDK and I suspect that if you were to really scrutinize the cut points, you might discover the same issue. Maybe not. It's a moot point where MPEG-2 is concerned -- anyway -- because I've moved on to AVCHD and H.264.

But I'm definitely in the transcode-to-intermediate camp for now because I've discovered I can edit HD intermediate files even on my weaker computers and the workflow is more like MiniDV DV .avi files... easy...

While you might wish for an "early death" for AVCHD, I think that is quite unlikely and I think HDV (which is tape-based by definition) will not survive too much longer. In the consumer stores here, it's difficult to find MiniDV camcorders and I couldn't find a simple IEEE 1394 controller card in either Best Buy or Circuit City recently, which tells me the convenience of discs and disks is winning.

As for Aiptek camcorders, no, the quality of their video isn't even in the same league with the quality of video from Canon/Sony/Panasonic, but Aiptek seems to be making some improvements while keeping prices incredibly low. When you need multiple cameras -- with a tiny budget -- the Aiptek HD camcorders can actually be made to work OK for certain types of work.

:-)

>I'm currently experimenting with the free Huffy codec

Try Lagarith, and change its exporting mode to create smaller files. It creates 3x smaller files than Huffyuv. Lagarith is the next version of Huff, in some ways.

Cool. Will do.

Try simply renaming the files from *.MOV to *.MP4.

This worked for some Aiptek HD files that I was sent to use with VP8, and it may work for VMS9 too.

(The MP4 file (wrapper) format is strongly based on the Quicktime file (wrapper) format, with only a couple of minor variations.)

Mark