To Brian - Rosebud explained it pretty well: "Well... when making records, if musician make an error, we want to be able to define a point to start a
new record (this is the punch'in). We place the head before this point, start reading (this is the pre-roll,
the musician can play over his previous take ), when head run over punch'in point, record start (like in
CUBASE).
In vegas to do this, you must insert empty event or split the curent event (event's beginning is the
punch'in point), select the new event, place head before this event, start record, etc...).
With simple track record, why not... but with multi-tracks record (ex: drummer), it's quickly very
annoying..."

In my situation, when recording a lead vocal track sometimes the singer needs to punch in a line and sometimes with the flow of a session and keeping the inspiration of the moment you need to be able to be set up and ready to go instantly and you need to also feed him the line or 2 before his punch-in point so he can match and continue the feel so you need to be able to play the track from a bar or two back but punch in precisely at the point where the new line is to be inserted. Whenever I've tried this in Vegas on the same track, it starts recording immediately (and erases the pre-roll lines). The only way round this I've found is to set up a new track and use that for the punch in part which is a pain in the butt and slows the flow of the session while the singer waits for you to do this. If you indeed have a way to instantly punch in to the same track while monitoring and not erasing the pre-roll part, I'd be very happy to find out what it is. Thanks.

Charles,

Personaly, i dont need "punching in" on the fly and i agree with you to say Vegas offers very powerful punching feature...
But, as you say, punching might be problematic in a live studio environnement (multi-tracks).
In fact, with your explanation, i have understand something:
1/Before begining a multi-tracks session, "a good thing" is to insert emptys events in each tracks to record. The longer of those events must be the total song's longer.
2/Group all those events.
3/If musician make an error, split all events where we want to punching'in (menu 'edit>Group>select all' and hit 'S').

As all events are grouping, you can move all event's limits in same time, but it's a pity we can't drag all event's crossfade in same time (alt-ctrl drag crossfade). Maybe in a future vegas version ?


So thank to you and Brian, your explanation will wery help me !

Ahmen on the crossfade all!!Have to do this alot.
I am with ya Charles and all.I have been using vegas strictly for recording indy label bands and mixes.We have run the 10 track live recordings for quite awhile now.
I think the punchin/out of Vegas is great.At first i fought it coming from a SAWPro and TOOLs world.Once you understand it it is very powerful.
As far as doing full 8tracks of drum drop ins,I have had no problems with this.
If need to be concerned about a vocal take kickin booty past a certain punchin point,just split the begining of your punchin and let it roll till they are done.Then grab the new wave end and drag it's edge back to where you think the performance may have leaned abit.
There are actually many diff ways to use the punch in feature in Vegas.
Stability would be agreat route for Sonic to really hone in on like Charles commented.
Let sonic concentrate on the things that really need fixed.
Trust me guys the punchin is fine in Vegas from a user who does alot of 8 track drum dubs.I honestly have never had to run into the mentioned punch prob as others are talking.It is in the way you work I believe.Try some diff things that are not what we are used to either from analog experince or other software used and I think you will get used to the new methods.Adding another track to dub in should not be a major hassle for anyone in a recording environment.
Done it many times with a producer,label a/r, and 3 band members watching my moves like hawks.Took no time for the setup.
They approved!!;-)

Fastest editor in all aspects of working?
Vegas hands down!!!

Ok,I hear what you're saying on doing a punch in as far as pre-roll and post-roll. Now let me explain how to do this like a pro and why me and Charles don't understand this situation.

Let's say we need to do a punch-in/out on a vocal take. We already know where the singer messed up his performance. Let's say for this example he messed up on the 3rd word of the 2nd verse.

Ok in my studio setup I have 2 tracks setup for my vocal recording. Let's say Track 1 I call it "Vocal Record", Track #2 I call it "Vocal Edit". I record my vocals on the first take on Track#1 and they do everything great except for the 3rd word on the 2nd Verse. I now drop down Take#1 onto Track 2 and do an edit of "the 3rd word on verse#2"....(ie this is where you're punch-in/punch-out will occur). Now the vocalist tells me to punch him in at that point, but he would like to also hear Verse #1 so that he can get a feel for the song( ie the Pre-roll you're talking about), . No problem I locate my cursor to Verse #1. Track#1 is still armed for record. From Verse #1 I press "Record"....the singer is now singing along with himself to get the feeling of the song as you mentioned, he's being recorded on Track#1 and Track#2 is playing back. Now when Track#2 reaches the "2nd Verse the 3rd Word". Track #2 will cut out, because that's where I did the edit....so essentially I have done a perfect punch-in/punch-out. Now let's say he missed the punch...no problem...locate back and do the same thing. Let's say he nails it on the 3rd take....ok...now I locate to the edit on Track#2 (ie the edges) and select the audio on Track#1 and do a split at those 2 points and now hit my numeric #2 key which is "drop down" and now the audio from track#1 is dropped into my edit point on Track#2. Now I can crossfade the edges if it is needed. Oh you also mentioned post-roll....how much do you need?...I can keep Track #1 in record as long as I have hard disk space...so I have plenty of post roll, and there is no need to insert blank events. For some reason, if you need to mute the audio on Track#2 during your post roll, well then hit "mute" on that track when you're recording.

Oh...and also now the producer says to me..."hey you know what? I really liked the way he sang the first verse along with himself at that one point. Did you record that?....I say...yeah...no problem we'll edit that into Track#2 from Track#1 and see how it sounds. Your method....you would have to say....uhhhhhh sorry I wasn't recording....I only recorded where he messed up at in the 2nd Verse. This same scenario has happened to me when doing live sessions, and the guitar player starts messing around playing along with himself before the punch in point and everyone in the band likes what they hear....and they ask the guitar player...."hey can you do that again...that was very cool"...and then the guitar player usually responds..."I don't remember what I was doing, I was just kinda playing around.".....then I say, "No problem I have it recorded". And everyone looks at me like I'm the greatest engineer on earth...and in actuality, I'm just being lazy, not having to pay attention to where the punch-in point happens.

This same situation can be used for multiple track/live recordings. In my studio I have 8 inputs into my PC....so I can essentially only record 8 seperate tracks. So I have a Vegas Project pre made up, which has 8 "Record Tracks" and then directly below these 8 tracks, I have 8 "Edit/Playback" Tracks. I usually only record on the "record" tracks and then drop the audio down into the "playback" tracks. I do the same thing in my Vocal record example except now I'm putting splits on 8 simultaneous tracks instead of 1. No problem...very easy to do in Vegas.

Ok, Now let me ask the question again....what's the need to be able to punch-in on the fly again? I really like not having to punch-in and being safe and lazy.

Regards,
Brian Franz
The Groove Factory

Brian,
I repeat, i dont need and never ask for punch ON THE FLY feature in Vegas.
If i understood your previous post (but i'm french and my english is bad) your method is great to make "touching up" records after a complete record session.
But when i work with a drumer, in most case he stop playing if he make an error. If record's begining is good, he want to make a "punch'in" before his error...
For this reason, if you dont insert emptys events on each tracks before begining your multi-tracks record, then punch'in is very annoying to do... even with your method.
In addition, i will be very surprised if Sonic Foundry programmers have imagine to work in Vegas with your method (vegas manual dont describe that).
If many peoples feel uncomfortable with punch function in Vegas, then there is (perhaps) a problem ? And a DETAILED Sonic Foundry tutorial on punch feature, will be welcome.

My method would still work with your drum punchin scenario. My method wouldn't be outlined in the Vegas manual because it was learned in 2 different recording studios with 30 other engineers who use the same technique. One studio used AMS Neve Audiophile editors and the other used Protools editors. Both systems are hard disk editors. I would sure hope that the Vegas programmers had looked at other hard disk editors like Protools and consulted professional engineers before they created Vegas....I'm sure they had.

You don't have to use my method it's just good advice for a problem you can't seem to solve. Just because it isn't in the Vegas manual, I can tell you many professional engineers use this method. Vegas has "unlimited" Tracks....so why would you record into the same track and risk recording over what you want to keep? I had to use punch-ins when I used Adats, Da-88's and 2 inch tape.....I had to break myself of this way of thinking ,it's now a better way of working like I explained in my previous post. Try it, and you will thank me later.

ie "Hear me now....believe me later"
LoL
Tchau,
Brian Franz

There's a reason why audio multitrack software packages usually have a proper punch-in function - i.e. you start to play a track and at a certain point you press the R key and recording starts (or if you're not nimble enough you can pre-determine punch-in and out points but that rather defeats the purpose) and that is because it's the quick and easy and intuitive way to do it. And it's really not hard to program a computer to start recording when you press a certain key. The methods outlined above are all very valid ways of addressing this but most of them look like trying to shift gears on a car by first stopping the car, getting out, adjusting the windshield wipers etc. etc. It's geat to have all that functionality but not at the expense of being able to do it the simple, quick and intuitive way that many prefer.

Brian,are you flaming my last post sir.
The word PRO is highly over used.
And I have not ever had any problems with losing anything from dubs as you state for YOUR self.
P.s. it is also amongst the 10 some engineers i work around that they like to use stero stems in their projects not forty miles of screenage to see 40 tracks of dubs.
Simply render your multitracks down;ie drum stem,vox stem, guitars,etc, from the multitrack and use these stereo pairs for your mixing.If need to dub vox go back to your multitrack editlist and dub.Then render again to the same stereo stem;ie vox stem, and go back to mix editlist and there is your new changes.
Yes there are many ways to work.One is not better or the best.Try that for size.
Fits good here.
Sonic foundry,punching in is just fine in vegas as is.Let us spend more time on stability especially in win2k.Brian,you might want to remeber NO ONE is a PRO here.
Thanx charles for posting your thoughts as well.
Hope all is well in NEW YORK.;-)

I wasn't flamming anyone, just gave a detailed description on why I don't understand the need for a punch-in, and the only good reason that I've seen for actually having a punch-in function is for intuitiveness. You don't have to use my method, and I could care less if you ever do. In fact I'm sorry I even wasted my breath for even trying to share some useful information with you. These forums are here to learn from each other. Thus the reason for Charles's original post.....I've always had the same question and figured maybe I was missing something. I'm sorry for exploiting you to some knowledge, of sharing with you a way of working that many people demanding punch-ins might not have realized. Maybe someday, you'll share some information with the rest of us, and make us all better engineers, instead of spewing ignorance.......Now I'm flaming you :-)

Sorry it's taken me so long to chime in again. I had a Murphy's Law week with all my computers.
Anyway, reading Brian's posts made me wonder whether a few "punch in" features are still not widely known. Brian - you say you have a vocal "record" track and then an "edit track but what I haven't seen you mention is the ability to record "into" an existing event. You mention select all and then delete unwanted events but I say to that: why delete a take when you can simply record another one into it and choose later? If I were you, here's what I would do:

Let's take a Karaoke situation: One stereo instrumental track and three vocal tracks (lead and 2 background). Arm the vocal tracks and then record a take. You have three events on three tracks of equal length. Say you're happy with the background tracks for now but you want to record a new 1 st chorus. Go to the chorsu and create split points on either side of the chorus. Select the chorus event. Name it if you so choose. now put the cursor in front of the chorus without deselecting it to create pre-roll for the puunch (left-click on the ruler to not affect the selection). You should now have your cursor somewhere in the verse and the chorus is still highlighted. Record. You will now be recording into the chorus as another take. You can also do this with the looping turned on if you want the singer to take a few cracks at it in a row while their voice is warmed up. Create a time selection around the chorus by left-click dragging in the ruler. This creates pre and post roll. Record until you're sick of hearing it and you will have as many takes in that event as you heard it loop. Now you can easily toggle between the takes with the "t" key while highlighted on the event. You can even decide to take the first two words of take 3, create a split there and then use the rest of the chorus from take 5 by then hitting "T" while you have the remainder of that event selected. Nice eh? Same goes for multiple tracks:

say you want to record the 1st verse of the main vocal and the 1st chorus of the female background singer and the 2nd chorus of the male background singer. Create your splits on each track, select the events, potition your cursor on the ruler and arm the tracks and record. Voila 3 different events will punch in at different times and create different takes.

anyway, I could go on and you may know all of this but I find this to be very unique and powerful. And of course you add to that the fact that each take has the preroll and post roll recorded but more precise editing....

let me know if any of this doesn't make any sense

>>
And it's really not hard to program a computer to start recording when you press a certain key.

Peter -
as you know, I don't care about punching on the fly but I have a question about your post. When punching, you would always arm the track as in regular recording, so why would there be an issue as to which port to open or whether that would be the one you want?

c.

>>
as you know, I don't care about punching on the fly but I have a question about your post. When punching, you would always arm the track as in regular recording, so why would there be an issue as to which port to open or whether that would be the one you want?

well, my answer to that is that those engineers should just get used to playing back with the track armed.

This is a good working technigue Charles, but I still don't see the need for the punch-in on the fly. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but the technique you mention, I also use with my method. I keep recording on the record track and then select the active take or as you mention "toggle". Thus we're doing the same thing, I can set up the loop and record method without a punch-in need. I think in my method, it would be less confusing, because you won't mix bad events (ie bad takes) with good events (ie the good takes you've already edited, because everything is divided on seperate tracks. Then when everything is finally completed and you want to do some house cleaning to save on space, alls you have to do is delete the track with all the bad events on it (ie the record track) and do a sweep in the media pool for unused media.

sounds good. No, I still don't see a need for punch on the fly.

I agree for the most part... the feature that is needed is to be able to hit the record button while it's playing, and if there are record armed tracks, they start recording.. then the ability to hit the record button again to drop out would be useful.

It just gives an alternate way of doing things. sometimes I'm lazy and it would make my life just that bit easier!

Vegas is icredibly powerful when it comes to dropping in/out, crossfades and all that malarky generally though. It's the overall simplicity of doing very complex things that attracted me to the program!

So... if I understand this right... couldn't you program vegas so that whenever you record arm a track, in makes that 'port' open, so if you are playing back you can hit the record button, and the driver will be prepared to record *only* on the record armed tracks. this would save on a hell of a lot of resources if it's possible...?

Jason

Exactly right, Webpuppy! Arm the track, start playing and then press record at the exact right moment (while hearing everything on that track up to that point) is what's needed.