Another HD & VV topic

filmy wrote on 11/18/2003, 9:40 AM

We all know that SoFO/Sony won't normally talk about upcoming releases but maybe they can shed some light on this - will the next version allow for HD capture and PTT? At least on the "consumer" side (HDV)? Why do I ask - because Ulead is talking about it for their next version(s) so I was hoping maybe we could get some early indications of what VV will have in store.

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MediaStudio Pro 7, Ulead's professional video editing software, is expected to work with the HDV format by the end of 2003. Gradually, all Ulead professional video and DVD software will support HDV. Leveraging Ulead's competency in real-time MPEG editing, MediaStudio Pro is an excellent candidate to handle HDV content seamlessly. Users will get the same convenient editing experience as they do with DV media in MediaStudio Pro's flexible workflow and broad toolset, but with the higher resolution and fidelity of HD video.

Masanori Kitami, general manager of JVC's Camcorder Category, says: "As people begin to transition to HDV, it's important for both hardware and software manufacturers to collaborate in developing products that support the format. We're therefore pleased that Ulead is taking some of the first steps in the software industry toward making HDV an accessible format to videographers worldwide."

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Comments

Jsnkc wrote on 11/18/2003, 10:44 AM

I can pretty much guarantee that they won't say anything about the future release, but I would place a strong bet that if the feature is available from Ulead, or Adobe and other competitors it will most likely be in a future update or version just so they can stay competitive. Also since that is where the video market seems to be heading, they would be stupid not to have it.

JJKizak wrote on 11/18/2003, 10:51 AM

I am assuming that "HDV" means capturing "HD" to "DV AVI" so that it can be easily edited. Perhaps someone can elaborate.

JJK

filmy wrote on 11/18/2003, 11:47 AM

>>>I am assuming that "HDV" means capturing "HD" to "DV AVI" so that it can be easily edited. Perhaps someone can elaborate.<<<

Sure - here is my post from July 4 with the link to the Press release from Sony that explains what "HDV" is.
http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=196332

(Actually - On the above thread you posted a response to my post on July 4)

JJKizak wrote on 11/18/2003, 1:22 PM

Filmy:
Yes I did. I read the info and what I got was that it was strictly a transfer deal utilizing mini DV tape and not having to use the JVC D-vhs vcr using TS or TP files as in MYHD card. I can change the tp file to mpg and put it on the timeline and watch a lot of jerky video and I can render it to 720 x 480 and it looks good with that. I was fogging up my brain with the idea that the HD could be Digitally captured (not the mpeg2 stream) but direct from the camera source into a DV.AVI file. I suppose they would have to change how many pixels and what size they are for this to work. Then do all the editing in DV and render back to HD. But maybe I am missing something here.

JJK

filmy wrote on 11/18/2003, 3:36 PM

>>>I was fogging up my brain with the idea that the HD could be Digitally captured (not the mpeg2 stream) but direct from the camera source into a DV.AVI file.<<<

I do not beleive there is a way to do this - I mean you plug in your 1394 cable to the camera/deck and the other end to your PC, and end up with a direct DV stream after a capture. HD is MPEG2 no matter how you slice it. The D-VHS deck can take a DV stream via it's firewire in and convert it to the HD/MPEG2 stream on the fly. Likewise some of the DVD burners now have firewire in and can do the same thing - just they are not converting to HD/MPEG2 is all. So what I am saying is that going from the HDV source direct to DV isn't going to happen. Going from the HDV source and "down" converting to DV - that is a different thing. If DSE is reading this thread he can give specifics, or if you do a search for SPOT and HD you will find what he uses. Lately I have even seen Sony tech posts about how using VV to edit HD should be done with a DV "proxy" copy. Somewhere recently Sony made a post to the effect of "Why use HD anyway? You should use DV" which suprised me. But to be fair that *may* have been in relation to the settings - the JVC camera allows you to also record a DV stream instead of an HD one.

So going back to the whole Ulead thing - I was sort of taking their statement as MSP will allow for direct HDV capture and output via firewire from within the program in a software only enviroment. This is something that VV does not do, nor most NLE's, at the moment unless you purchase a $5,000 - $20,000 hardware solution. So JVC's comment about Ulead being the "first" software solution would make sense - as far as capture/output/edit goes. And if they use some sort of proxy type of method than it could very well be that HD becomes more "real time" in a software only setting. Now - there is one other thing to consider - the new 1394b has a much higher throughput and can capture SD with no issues so perhaps the "catcher" with this is MSP will use 1394b to capture HDV material. Even if that is the case the cost of a new 1394b card is between $100 - $200, still a lot less than what Blue Fish cards cost.

JJKizak wrote on 11/18/2003, 4:25 PM

Thanks Filmy. I was concerned that we are getting into another DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM, DVD AUDIO, DVD+VR< DVD-VR, etc. Next will be HD 30 gig discs and then the new 3D double falt panels by Sharp doubling up the data requirement so then we will need 60 gig discs for the new HD3D and on and on and on. It would be nice if they would try to adopt some kind of base criteria for all of this stuff.

JJK

farss wrote on 11/18/2003, 4:47 PM

Bandwidth on the 1394 port isn't an issue capturing the kind of HDV you're talking about as the bitrate is less than 25 Mb/sec which 1394 can handle, it's actually slower than DV!

The only real issues are:

VV cannot capture directly or PTT back to the camera, neither of these are real issues as you can use supplied capture urility and why would you want to print back in that format anyway, nothing else can play it.

You can however convert to uncompressed HD and using other software / cards to PTT. But you need a big budget for that. Until they sort out a number of issues with the cameras I don't see this as being a big issue anyway.

PS. I assume we are talking about the GR-HD10 and its upcoming derivatives.

By all accounts you'll get a better result shooting on a DVX100 and upscaling that.

RBartlett wrote on 11/18/2003, 5:33 PM

What farss said so succinctly.

MSP, and to paraphrase SPOT, does a brilliant job with IBP MPEG-2 editing.
Vegas is OK and doesn't splutter when you get your final SD/HD footage rendered. MSP proves that with care, IBP is editable and fluidly, heck, we expect mediaplayer to play it smoothly for SD and 2.5GHz PCs to play HD 720p WMV9.

It would be wise for Sony to polish the MPEG-2 transport stream editing of Vegas4 before even worrying about direct device control/in-out for HDV cameras.

Another "hasn't been mentioned" is that transcoding HDV into MJPEG (and possibly I-frame-only MPEG-2) gives a fluid response even at full resolution. I've used the PICvideo codec on 720p with no issues, I'd struggle to justify replacing the media with the original HD MPEG-2 transport streams. As with typical proxy rendering.

You can download .trp and .m2t from links you'll find (Paul Mogg) over at the HD room at CreativeCow. Taste the future.

Since being inspired by these. I've run off a few digital stills camera montages in WMV9 720p. Maybe not future proof target formats, but I've no DVHS requirements right now to tow the true video line, etc.

Editing MPEG-2, as with AC3, has some emotional/moralistic baggage. MSP isn't too expensive to add to your arsenal if you can't wait.

Camera functionality isn't perfect at any price, so NLEs being the same seems reasonable. I was hoping for a new Vegas release by now, not with just the dropping of the Sonic Foundry text. Nevermind, Vegas still rocks and I'm confident Sony are listening and applying this to their strategy.