Any Magix "Game Changing" developments been put into Vegas or others?

Rednroll wrote on 6/30/2021, 3:15 PM

I don't mean this to be criticism against Magix and in actuality I'm thankful they seized the opportunity to take Vegas out of the hands of Sony and continue to develop it.

However, today I was thinking of the original reasons I jumped onboard the Vegas as well as Acid, and Sound Forge bandwagons back in the Sonic Foundry days.

1st let me define "Game Changing". To me Game Changing is a technology developed that solves a common problem in the industry which no one has yet thought of or been able to solve, where once it's out there, all the other competitors end up having to catch up and attempt to solve that problem as well, to remain competitive.

So what is anything that has been a "Game Changer" that you can think of which has been developed since Magix has owned the product? Personally, I'm coming up empty. It's all been more along the lines of follow the leader and catch up, rather than anything ground breaking.

Some examples from the past.

When Vegas 1st came out, it was the 1st DAW where you could easily manage working with different audio with multiple sample rates and bit depths, and audio formats. Prior there was ProTools where you often found, you were working on a project at a 44.1Khz sample rate and the audio had to be in .AIF or .Wav format, but then a client brings in some audio for you to load into the project which is at 48Khz and .MP3 format. So you throw that audio into the project and the 1st thing you notice is that it sounds like the voice over people are drunk because it's playing back at a slower speed or you just can't load it into the project. You then had to take that audio, load it into another program, further process it so it was now at that common denominator sample rate and format. Vegas comes along, and amazingly you can throw most any audio format as well as sample rate at it and move it around your project with ease. At that time, this was something unheard of but since then everyone had to catch up and provide that same type of solution which we now pretty much take for granite. Then they followed that and did the same thing for video, all in the same program.

When Acid Pro came out it was a game changer. It was the 1st program to solve the problem of being able to change the tempo of audio without changing the pitch, but if you wanted to change the pitch to make it play in a different musical key signature you could do that as well. It was a solution to what many had been doing with midi sequencing prior but now working with actual audio instead. Since then pretty much every DAW had to come with a similar solution to remain competitive.

When Sound Forge 1st came out, it was really the 1st real serious work audio program on the PC platform and it came with an easy to use interface. Prior to Sound Forge the common misconception was that "You have to own a MAC to be able to do any serious audio recording/mixing work." Sound Forge came out and pretty much broke down those walls for every DAW we see on the PC today. Then the solutions on the MAC side was Digidesign's "Sound Designer" which compared to Sound Forge at the time was much harder to work with and had an awful user interface.....but it was "reliable and stable".

I originally got excited, when Acid Pro "Next" came out by Magix with a feature called "Stem Maker". I thought I was seeing a game changing innovation from Magix. Stem Maker attempted to provide a solution to the problem of not being able to unmix your audio once it's already mixed. It promised to take a mixed audio track and be able to extract the separate vocal, drum, bass, and guitar parts out of it so you could use those pieces as separate audio tracks. In the past, this was unheard of, where we used to use the analogy "you can't pull the white out of already mixed can of red paint". However, I later learned this was a technology developed by Zynaptic and licensed to Magix to use in Acid Pro. Further disappointment came about when that licensing fell through like they often do when you're licensing technology and they removed that feature from Acid. More salt into wounds, now other audio programs are adopting the same type of feature but using a technology by Deezer which works better than Zynaptic's.

So can anyone think of any game changing innovations that have been developed by Magix, or are they mainly one of the many technology followers continually playing catch up?

Comments

RogerS wrote on 6/30/2021, 8:46 PM

We're long past the pioneering days in video editing software and fundamental capabilities are largely similar. Efficiency at doing tasks and the interface varies. Ease of use is a game changer if it enables you to play the game in the first place.

At this point what is cutting edge? HDR? Raw support? Vegas has the former if not really the latter. AI-enabled features? Vegas has a framework for that in place if not so much in the way of contents. Online collaboration? Perhaps Hub is the start of that.

Rednroll wrote on 6/30/2021, 9:28 PM

We're long past the pioneering days in video editing software and fundamental capabilities are largely similar. Efficiency at doing tasks and the interface varies. Ease of use is a game changer if it enables you to play the game in the first place.

At this point what is cutting edge? HDR? Raw support? Vegas has the former if not really the latter. AI-enabled features? Vegas has a framework for that in place if not so much in the way of contents. Online collaboration? Perhaps Hub is the start of that.

Sure if you're not a creative thinker then everything has already been done and you probably never had any ambition to become an inventor. We would all still be editing tape if that was the mindset of developers, just switching between different types of tape to splice it all together.

What you described reminds me of one of my favorite sayings.....

'The light bulb would have never been invented, if we spent all our time trying to improve the candle."

I don't work a lot with Video but I'm sure I could come up with a few things that aren't currently being done with any video NLE's.

There's an entire world of voice recognition capabilities that could be explored. So instead of spending hours trying to figure out how to create something within the software you could just say something like, "I want to add a special effect dissolve on this area of the video." The software would understand your thought and use the best tools built into to create it for you.

There's also gesture motions that could be implemented into the software instead of clicking and dragging with a mouse pointer.

I've been seeing quite a few movies lately where they are able to take the face of an actor/actress when they were younger and put it as an overlay on top of someone else's body so that you have the actor and the younger version of the actor doing movie scenes together. Seen old Arnold Schwarzenegger in the same movie acting together with young Arnold. What's that movie with the younger Will Smith and the Older one? Heck, I have friends that use phone apps where they are able to put their face on top of the face of an actor in a movie where their face and facial expressions now move with the audio. I think that's some pretty cool stuff, but I sure as heck couldn't tell you how to go about doing that same type of thing when editing in Vegas but it sure does seem like a pretty innovative technology that's been developed recently in the world of video editing.

Combining that all together, it certainly would seem like a game changer if I could say to my NLE. "Take my face from this picture and impose it over the top of this person in the video." I would certainly run out and buy that NLE if I could do something like that and do it that easily.

RogerS wrote on 6/30/2021, 10:18 PM

Several of the things you are describing currently exist and leverage AI frameworks (such as de-aging/face swaps). Recognizing voice to generate subtitles/captions is also be done through AI as a service. With the integration of the AI platform this should be possible in Vegas as well. There are many open-source or licenceable tools out there, the program just needs to be able to integrate them. Between the AI framework and OFx and it seems this is the direction Vegas is going in (which makes sense, why reinvent the wheel?)

Having the software read your mind/preferences is interesting, reminds me of talking to the computer on Star Trek. I think that's a long ways off but do expect computer interfaces to dramatically change within my lifetime. We're a long way from the '80s and text based inputs and the trend will likely continue towards high-level, simplified interfaces. (I am skeptical of gesture-based technologies like the screens in Minority Report, too inefficient and hard to repeat actions. Even for games they are largely seen as an imprecise novelty.)

There are many places where the legacy Ux of Vegas could be streamlined and improved to be intuitive and get out of users' ways. Personally, in the short to medium term I'm more interested in incremental kaizen efficiency based on user feedback and metrics about how the program is used than disruptive change.

Rednroll wrote on 6/30/2021, 11:33 PM

Yes, Kaizen is definitely needed in Vegas but I rather we not turn this into a "this" over "that" priority discussion since that was not really the intent. Everyone has their personal preferences and opinions of where they would like to see Vegas evolve/improve. There's plenty of those feature request threads for that type of debate discussion. I'm just making an observation that I really haven't been able to identify anything to date come out of the Magix camp which seemed like an innovative feature where it could be considered an industry game changer but in actuality, when you look back on the history of these products that's where their roots originated.

Being more of an audio guy, I could probably overwhelm you with a boring discussion of where Vegas needs to catch up in that department despite it still being a leading contender in audio features for an NLE. My original foresight dream about Vegas was watching it grow into the best "multimedia" editor but the only feature I've seen come out of the audio side of that multimedia aspect since about v6.0 has been LUFs metering while at the same time seeing audio features like export to Protools being removed.

Yelandkeil wrote on 7/1/2021, 7:59 AM

The exploitation of the free ACESystem.

It's almost perfect now in Vegaspro 18.

This gaming change will show its power in the near future.

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Win11Pro: 25H2-26200.7462; Direct3D API = 12.2
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AcidPro10 + SoundForgePro14.0.065 + SpectraLayersPro7 
K-LitecodecPack19.3.5 (MPC Video Renderer for HDR10 Playback on PC) 

fred-w wrote on 7/1/2021, 1:44 PM

As I pointed out on another thread, when Sony bought Sonic Foundry line of products (Vegas, Acid, Soundforge, I'm not sure all that would comprise the complete list) They had 190 employees, of whom Sony retained/hired 70 some. Post the Magix "purchase" (is it that or sponsorship/distributorship/partnership?) Vegas is down to about a dozen. And you're expecting???? Bleeding edge technology???

Most of us would be deliriously happy if we got playback speeds that would be on par with Resolve or some other more recently coded software.

I DO agree with your basic premise, @Rednroll, that Sonic Foundry was blazing some trails, and it would not be considered "just wishful thinking" to imagine Sony would take that and crank it, same with Magix.

The talebearer is really in the resource allocation. Money/manpower. I really don't think Magix is the outright owner, I think they just want a "show pony" in their stable, and they're willing to "rent" one. ( If I'm right or wrong on this, this is how they act, and that is how Sony behaved as well, AFAIAC.or maybe Sony, in their case, wanted a complementary software with their cameras and not much more.....I'd love to be wrong on this, just btw, I'm not 'smarter than thou,' as some would want to categorize some of my takes, NO, just want the best for a really well founded idea: i.e., Vegas itself, brilliant in its conception, too often, [but not always] a bit "meh" in its realization)...

Tell me ANY - as you'd suggest - game changer, or even 'fix this gd thing and put it on solid coding base' - evidence to the contrary.......I'll wait. (Clues, hamburger menus and b&W colorization don't count, [how many are even going to EVER open that plug?])...

fred-w wrote on 7/1/2021, 2:01 PM

 

There are many places where the legacy Ux of Vegas could be streamlined and improved to be intuitive and get out of users' ways. Personally, in the short to medium term I'm more interested in incremental kaizen efficiency based on user feedback and metrics about how the program is used than disruptive change.

Here, here, and Kaizen relies on the line worker to point out 'improvable' areas. The coding team has been there since the inception, the bulk of them, or so it would seem. IOW, the culture is fixed. Unless Magix itself is really ready to invest more heavily, and makes some demands, the Kaizen idea is Kaput.

A quote from one of the current (and original) developers:
Q: What is your favorite feature in VEGAS, and why is it your favorite?
"This is probably because I’ve worked on the product since Day #1, but I really think VEGAS DVD Architect is a wonderful companion application for VEGAS Pro. The output options it provides cover almost every delivery format you needs for disc authoring. The power provided by intelligent use of end-actions and DVD scripting, or multiple tracks, buttons on video, or playlists is immense and the user can basically do everything the disc specs allow."

So. Please understand, I like DVD Architect. I've used i it maybe three or four times, about fifteen years ago.

THIS is where we are at, and WHY we are there.

Rednroll wrote on 7/1/2021, 4:04 PM

As I pointed out on another thread, when Sony bought Sonic Foundry line of products (Vegas, Acid, Soundforge, I'm not sure all that would comprise the complete list) They had 190 employees, of whom Sony retained/hired 70 some. Post the Magix "purchase" (is it that or sponsorship/distributorship/partnership?) Vegas is down to about a dozen. And you're expecting???? Bleeding edge technology???

You may have misunderstood the part where I included the word "anything", meaning that would also include all the programs they have acquired over the years, not only Vegas. Which would therefore also include Samplitude, where I believe you could speak to that since you are more familiar with it's recent offerings.

When I look at their entire product line, they all seem to be going along a development path of just trying to keep up with the Jones's and making GUI changes along the way (ie hamburger menus as you mention).

So when I look at it this way where a developer seems to have a focus on just following along there's really not much that sets them apart. What's my real incentive as a Premiere, FCP, Logic Pro, Davinci Resolve, Abelton Live, Reaper or Cubase user to start using any of Magix's competitive offering products? It seems like your only way of attracting others away their current product is counting on your competitor's customers to get fed up with their current product, which doesn't seem like a good path to pursue since you aren't really controlling your own destiny by not developing anything your competitors don't already have in their product. I mean the big hype of Vegas 18 was that it expanded it's workflow to have a closer integration with Vegas Effects which isn't even their product. So they essentially caught up to what Adobe has been doing with Premiere and After Effects for years. It's just follow the leader developments.

JN- wrote on 7/1/2021, 4:07 PM

This is a sneak peek of whats new in VP19 …

Sneak Peek of the new version

Adjustments tracks

Improved format support

Range-limited color wheels in Color Grading panel

---------------------------------------------

VFR2CFR, Variable frame rate to Constant frame rate link to zip here.

Copies Video Converts Audio to AAC, link to zip here.

Convert 2 Lossless, link to ZIP here.

Convert Odd 2 Even (frame size), link to ZIP here

Benchmarking Continued thread + link to zip here

Codec Render Quality tables zip

---------------------------------------------

PC ... Corsair case, own build ...

CPU .. i9 9900K, iGpu UHD 630

Memory .. 32GB DDR4

Graphics card .. MSI RTX 2080 ti

Graphics driver .. latest studio

PSU .. Corsair 850i

Mboard .. Asus Z390 Code

 

Laptop… XMG

i9-11900k, iGpu n/a

Memory 64GB DDR4

Graphics card … Laptop RTX 3080

fred-w wrote on 7/1/2021, 4:34 PM

This is a sneak peek of whats new in VP19 …

Sneak Peek of the new version

Adjustments tracks

Improved format support

Range-limited color wheels in Color Grading panel

Looks promising, I'd still like 'double/triple current FPS playback on timeline.'

Rednroll wrote on 7/1/2021, 11:12 PM

This is a sneak peek of whats new in VP19 …

Sneak Peek of the new version

Adjustments tracks

Improved format support

Range-limited color wheels in Color Grading panel

Nothing about that really excites me. If those are their teasers it's kind of like saying, we really didn't finish up with features in the last version because we ran out of time, so we're going to release a new version how we actually intended them to be. 😯

JN- wrote on 7/2/2021, 4:55 AM

@Rednroll That's one way of looking at it. On paper, not much for sure, I don’t even know what Adjustments track implies. But looking at it from a glass half full perspective, I'm sure it’ll continue to develop and get better. The format support probably refers to “Some” Raw support. The Colour grading item does sound like more of a minor? tweak. Still they did say … and much more🤪

Anyway i’m looking forward to it.

---------------------------------------------

VFR2CFR, Variable frame rate to Constant frame rate link to zip here.

Copies Video Converts Audio to AAC, link to zip here.

Convert 2 Lossless, link to ZIP here.

Convert Odd 2 Even (frame size), link to ZIP here

Benchmarking Continued thread + link to zip here

Codec Render Quality tables zip

---------------------------------------------

PC ... Corsair case, own build ...

CPU .. i9 9900K, iGpu UHD 630

Memory .. 32GB DDR4

Graphics card .. MSI RTX 2080 ti

Graphics driver .. latest studio

PSU .. Corsair 850i

Mboard .. Asus Z390 Code

 

Laptop… XMG

i9-11900k, iGpu n/a

Memory 64GB DDR4

Graphics card … Laptop RTX 3080

Rednroll wrote on 7/2/2021, 9:39 AM

The Adjustment track is the only thing that has me intrigued. I'm currently envisioning it to be a track with dedicated envelope adjustments on it which can be copied/pasted like any other track. Just a more flexible and likely cleaner looking way of doing things that are already built into Vegas such as the video,audio and plugin envelope adjustments. Envelope adjustments can get a little difficult to see when they're laying on top of the video or audio events, while also being difficult to select because there's typically an event laying under it which can get selected accidentally. That's my speculation at this point anyways. Reaper did this type of thing like 5+ years ago.

fred-w wrote on 7/2/2021, 2:38 PM

@Rednroll That's one way of looking at it. On paper, not much for sure, I don’t even know what Adjustments track implies. But looking at it from a glass half full perspective, I'm sure it’ll continue to develop and get better. The format support probably refers to “Some” Raw support. The Colour grading item does sound like more of a minor? tweak. Still they did say … and much more🤪

Anyway i’m looking forward to it.

Adjustment track is like a blanket adjustment layer. I suppose in Vegas, you could add, say, a LUT adjustment track that would effect all tracks below. Instead of adjusting individual events or tracks.That would be on the simple end of the spectrum, it might get more complex, powerful.