I haven't tested this but there's an interesting Source Forge project that allows you to save data files to your dv camcorder. (dvbackup.sourceforge.net)

One way to use this is to save your project and check the "Copy and trim media with project." Then you could use dv backup to copy the directory with your veg file and the trimmed files to the dv tape.

I'm a little hesitent to try this but it sure looks interesting!

BillyBoy,

Are you saying that archiving on an external firewire drive like a lacie etc. is not reliable. Drives like the Acom Data are cheap now. Not a good way to go?

Oh no a UNIX hack? You try this Paul? Sounds interesting but UNIX?

i just archive my edited projevts on dv tape
**make sure you know how to store the dv tapes though
don't store them laying down
they must be stored in the dv case stored just like they came from the store you bought them from
sb

Sony is supposedly going to come out with some sort of digital tape drive backup to store video projects. It's called Rough Cut. Not sure if it will work with VV, though.

http://209.10.179.98/clientpages/Sony_12122002/roughcut.html

Whoops, Billy Boy! I wouldn't have posted that if I thought it was only Unix. I didn't read it very carefully, and saw some blurb down at the bottom about Windows support. Now that I look again it looks like you have to compile it yourself to Windows. I had read something about this months ago and I thought there was a Windows project, but can't find it doing searches at the moment.

I guess when I think about it it would be more hassle than it's worth. A better idea might be to trim a project, then save it to a DVD disc. I think you could fit a project of about 20 minutes on one 4.3 gig DVD disc. (Not 4.7 as it says because DVD's use 1,000 kbytes per meg versus windows which uses 1024).

But Boom... my DV tapes came in a cute six-pack thingy covered in platic wrap and were hanging on a hook in the store. How do I do that?

OK, my weird sense of humor. You mean side by side like this? [][][][][][]

My way of archiving is the following:

I already have the source on tape. It was captured and used to make the project. IT is the ONLY copy of it I need, barring complete disaster.

I put everything in the directory where I saved the captured files. The idea is to put EVERYTHING in one directory.

In the directory is the captured source and lots of other things, including wave files, altered source and the .veg or project file, altered audio, etc.

I don't NEED the ORIGINAL source stored AGAIN, I have it on tape. And, it is way too big and expensive and time consuming to store AGAIN, anyway. I only want altered source files, both audio and video, which I can sort out by clicking on MODIFIED or DATE/TIME at the top of the Windows EXPLORER column. Any .AVI that is AFTER the beginning of the project is presumably altered from an original. Any .wav or .w64 file, etc, is also presumably not on the ORIGINAL Source Tape. ALL that sort of thing should be dated AFTER the start of the project.

After clicking on Modified or Date/Time, things are sorted by creation time. Highlight everything BEFORE the start of the project, leaving the .veg and all altered things which have dates AFTER the start of the project.

Now, you have a minumum of things, and they can easily be copied to DVD. I never have had to use more than one Disc.

Quite economical and fast.

To recreate the entire project, just recapture from the ORIGINAL Tape, copy the .veg and other things back to their original directory, open the .veg file, and you are right were you left off working on the project before archiving.

If you don't have a "Standard" method of assigning directories, you may have to note where things go on the Hard Drive. A text file is a good place for this. It, too, should be stored on the DVD.

Vegas, if it can't find something, will tell you, and then you can tell Vegas to "look" for it. Generally, though, it is better to put it back in the directory where it came from. That is where the .veg (project) file expects to find it.

The first time or two you archive using the above method, it might not hurt to attempt to do a rebuild from scratch (after taking all the files on your working drive and putting them in a folder, so their location is slightly different from default). As noted, VV3 is not at all shy about telling you if it can't find something that is needed by the veg file you open.

Considered consolidating your material on a full size DVCAM tape? At DV speed you can get 270 minutes DV on a Sony PDV 184N. Put your clips on the time line with small spaces between them then print to tape. btw: this is a job for Premiere 6.x if you have it because in this case you don't have to render before dumping to tape.

Peter

THIS is exactly why we need bins in the media pool. (Thank you Sonic Foundry for answering our plea in Vegas 4!).

That way, you can keep all the files in one folder to facilitate archiving; but use media pool bins to organize files (by subject, by close-up/long-shot, by main action/cutaway or whatever makes sense to you). How anyone edits pieces longer than, say 5 minutes, without some kind of filing system is utterly beyond me.

Here's some more info on "Rough Cut," the coming Sony product. Boo hiss - looks like it'll only work on Macs.....

http://www.storagesearch.com/firewire.html

I have seen some of Sony's AIT-2 based technology. Their backup solutions tend to be VERY expensive. Designed for motion picture type outfits, not private users. Perhaps you qualify with the big bucks? I'm a school teacher. I store things in my brain for lack of funds to buy external media.

Here's another option. I just purchased a ADS PYRO 1394 Drive Kit with Ultra-Fast 120GB Hard Drive for under $300.00 Apparently, any hard disk drive can be installed in the 1394 Drive Kit. My plan is to store (archive) project by just purchasing hard disk drives and placing them in the 1394 Drive Kit. Once the drive is full, I'll take it out and store it in an appropriate environment.

Just another choice of archiving to consider. Hope it's helpful.

Ted

A single dvd is MUCH cheaper, but if you want hard disks, consider a Removable Rack arrangement, so you can just slide the drive in and out of your computer case. Firewire drives have met with much mixed emotion and success on this forum. I suggest you do a search on Firewire to be sure you want to do that.

By the way, you can get SEVERAL Removable Racks and Tray combinations for the price of the Firewire enclosure. That makes it ideal for moving among several computers without having to put a Firewire card in every computer. Nice.

I'm still considering the removable tray option. I'm just trying to avoid too much intrusion into my computer. It's on lease. I'm just might return it for a bigger, better one. To be honest, though, I've spent lots of time putting in and taking out things in this ol' computer. . . including a new IEEE 1394 card that has been working wonderfully between my GL2 and Vegas Video 3. I'm hoping that it will do just as wonderful as a hard disk holding device (via Pyro's 1394 Hard Drive Kit).

Cheers! :)

Ted

I have been using a Sony AIT 4 tape autochanger for some time now and there are some definite advantages and disadvantages to this format. Most OS win2k/nt/98 and XP do not natively support autochangers, in order for this product to work you need third party backup software such as ARCserv or Backupexec. I assume that sony would bundle this type of software with the new autochangers. A big advantage to this tape format is its capacity, AIT1 compressed can hold approx. 50gig/tape and I believe AIT2 is doubles this capacity. The biggest problem I see with tape backup however is the backup speed. I recently backup a video drive containing 110 gig of data and it took almost 24hrs to complete. Price may also be an issue as well, currently AIT tape runs for about $120.00 CAD /tape

Look up ONSTREAM. I believe that it is at www.onstream.com

They make backup tapes suitable for DV archiving, and they are a lot cheaper than those mentioned, and most others. My 50GB types are $35.00 each, and they are quite fast UNLESS you tell it to COMPARE. Compare means, after you put it on tape, go back and, bit by bit, PROVE and assure that the tape is perfect. This can triple the time required for a simple backup. Done over night it is not usually a problem.

Can u give me any idea of the cost for the cheapest possible deck or video camera that would hold a DVCAM tape? Besides backup, I need it because my projects are over an hour and a half long, too long for printing to mini DV. I wouldn't need the DVCAM except for when I print to tape so it wouldn't have to be the latest and greatest.
Thanks.

I think if the project is important, especially while you are working on it, you need at least two different backups. The original tapes serve as backup #1. Somewhere else, DDS or AIT tape backup or extra hard drive, or somewhere you should keep a 2nd backup of all media files.

On current project that includes 10 hours of source tape, i even keep the backups (DDS4 tapes) off site. The originals I keep in a fireproof little safe. I once had to re-do a ton of hours of work so i am definitely "scared straight." As far as back ups of the veg files, I keep about 5 copies of them in various locations. It will all seem like overkill and a waste of time and money.....until disaster strikes....and if u do video long enough, it will strike.

the Sony DSR-11 DVCAM deck is a common choice and I heard they are down near $1500 now. It was the cheapest option a year and a half ago. I don't know what else is out there now. there are some compatability problems with Vegas, but nothing major. it works well.

HOW IT WORKS: DV decks (or cameras) do not mess with the DV signal from tape or to tape -- like they do from SVHS by comparison, which typically gets "improved" in translation to DV. Hense the DV signal is nothing more than a "sophisticated" digital data stream. It can contain ANYTHING. All you need is a translator, which all backup programs are to a simpler degree.

However there is a problem with media reliability. It is a big difference between 30 gig of DATA and 1 hour of digital video. If there is a single bit dropped in a 30-gig data file and your error correction and contingency handling isn't very good you lose it all and that's that. By comparison you wouldn't even notice a dropped bit in a video data stream. There would be no impact at all.

In 1991 I was backing up more than a gig to a VHS tape using a pre-HQ consumer VCR. Same deal. The program managed this feat by exploiting redundancy, overcoming the relatively poor tape quality by striping the same data multiple times in packets. It was relatively slow, but it worked, and it was a fraction of the cost of streaming tape at the time.

Thus I am skeptical of combining data and DV -- but it is certainly doable. Especially if a canny redundancy of data is used, while leaving the media files in an inherently reliable streaming format. ANY SF ENGINEERS LISTENING THAT CAN SPILL THE BEANS?

In about a year there will be multi-layer and blue-frequency DVD-R's that will be in the 50-gig range -- equal to a virgin tape and then some.

The underlying question about a reliable project backup method-technology is a good one that I still need to unravel. I certainly appreciate the experience shared in this thread. I can add something to that:

I intend to use DVD-RW to off-load ALL big media files, and a single redundant copy of these.

The reason is hard drive failures using these giant files are the rule and not the exception, for the same reason as for data files on tape without redundancy.

I was shocked to learn the drive manufacturers have NOT implemented auto-repair firmware yet and this is on their list for 'some time in the future.' Nor is there ANY competent and reliable third-party software to actually repair hard drives.

It is not an option for the drive to hit a patch of marginal surface and spend SECONDS trying to read or write data, in a real-time high-bandwidth AV application. Not many real-time applications can deal with multi-gigabyte files under these conditions. The files bomb -- as often as not ruining hours of effort.

And often enough creating a chain-reaction of errors. Correction takes redundant trial and error at a cost of more hours per trial. Impossible. It is easy to get trapped in a desperately serious maze trying to figure this out when the gremlins decide to call.

See my epinions rant about SPINRITE for more details.

Until then it is a matter of survival to have redundancy and this means DVD-R or RW. Treat and store them carefully, etc. and they should last well beyond their need. However figuring out how to implement a good system I have not yet, so I appreciate these ideas.

INCIDENTLY: THERE'S A LOT FRESH MATERIAL IN THIS OLDER THREAD ABOUT THE SAME SUBJECT (basically): http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=135645