Audio Hardware

Streamworks Audio wrote on 7/27/2010, 5:29 PM
Hey guys...

I am just curious as to how many of you are recording audio into Vegas's timeline and if so which audio hardware are you using.

We often record voice overs into Vegas, but that is pretty much it - all other audio comes from our video sources or other clips and what not form our content libraries.

Before working with video I spent most of my career working in the audio engineering field - so audio interfaces are not strange beasts to me. But I am looking at new interface with simple (read limited) features. Basically I only need a PCI Card with a Line Level input (we use out board Mic Pre's for mic levels) - but finding such a card in the 'Pro Audio Realm' is hard... most will have Mic Pre's and such - stuff we really do not need (large audio projects are mixed with our audio workstation which is decked out with MOTU gear).

So I was looking at something like a Sound Blaster... I know that in forums for the audio software vendors, just mentioning that brand name will result in an up roar! But really... due to my background in audio and that most of it has been based in the computer end of it (starting with my Atari 1040ST) - looking at the differences between the 'Pro Audio' interface and the 'Sound Blaster' on the inside (in terms of convertors and such) many share the same components.

So I am wondering how many here are working with a simple consumer type audio interfaces (such as the sound blaster) for basic recording? The Sound Blaster I have in the closet is a Xi-Fi with a optical SPDIF in & out... our Joe Meek mic pre has an SPDIF optical out... so I could use it with having to use the convertors.

Anyways... any such users here?

P.S - Sorry I ended being so long winded LOL

Comments

PeterDuke wrote on 7/27/2010, 5:53 PM
What features are you looking for that the on-board sound codec on the motherboard (usually RealTek these days) doesn't have? Purists use to say that you should use an external A/D converter to reduce digital noise pickup in the analog circuitry, but I haven't looked at that for years so I don't know what modern technology is like.

I use an old M-Audio USB sound interface but I don't think that it is still available. Edirol (Roland) makes a cheapish USB interface I think.
farss wrote on 7/27/2010, 6:04 PM
Like Peter I've got an old M-Audio Firewire 410, no longer available as it's since been updated.

If you've already got gear with the A>D converters in it and it has SPDIF out then many mobos have SPDIF In capability. The problem is you need a special riser card to get to it. They seem very hard to come by though.

Bob.
Streamworks Audio wrote on 7/27/2010, 6:17 PM
Thanks guys....

Yeah my Joe Meek SixQ has SPDIF out - and I am looking at the on board to see if the optical SPDIF is in or out or both. I am not worried about latency as I will monitor the source via the Mic Pre, and the Audio Sub System in Windows is getting better for latency anyways.

At the moment I have a PreSonus Firebox on that machine.... never been too happy with it.

I will see how the onboard works - if I can do digital then cool - if not maybe just for for the Sound Blaster. I love my MOTU 828mk3 that is on our Audio Workstation... but thats too much for voice overs only.

Cheers,
Chris
musicvid10 wrote on 7/27/2010, 7:52 PM
My interface died earlier this year. I've decided on the M-Audio ProFire 610 (which replaced the 410 mentioned earlier). The I/O's and ability to double as a field mixer appeal to me.
PeterDuke wrote on 7/27/2010, 9:19 PM
"I have a PreSonus Firebox on that machine.... never been too happy with it."

Moi aussi!

It is firewire rather than USB. It wouldn't record reliably with my laptop without putting glitches in from time to time, although it seemed to be OK on my main computer. Contrary to favourble reviews, I thought the noise performance was not as good as it should be. I bought it because it permitted 4 channel recording.

If SPDIF is a requirement, then Soundblaster is not the way to go. I had one once and it seemed not to do a clean digital transfer. I suspected that it converted to analog and back to digital again, possibly so that it could go through the analog mixer.
Steve Mann wrote on 7/27/2010, 9:36 PM
I use the Presonus Firepod with Vegas for Voiceover and ADR work.
PeterDuke wrote on 7/27/2010, 9:38 PM
"If you've already got gear with the A>D converters in it and it has SPDIF out then many mobos have SPDIF In capability. The problem is you need a special riser card to get to it. They seem very hard to come by though"

I had a mobo once (Albatron) which came with all plugs but I couldn't get the SPDIF to work. I emailed Albatron who replied in general terms and that they were sorry that I had problems. I emailed again for more specific help but got no more replies.

If SPDIF is a requirement then look for USB or firewire interface.

About 15 years ago I had an SPDIF daughter card at work which worked well, but that was about two interface bus standards ago (16 bit version of the original IBM PC bus - what was that called?)
A-Scott wrote on 7/27/2010, 11:02 PM
I've considerably scaled down from the days when I was running a 24-track ADAT setup.

For simple 2- or 4-channel audio I use the E-Mu 0404 PCI card.

It has 2-channel, line-level analog I/O (no mic-pre's) and S/PDIF I/O (either coaxial or optical). For 2-channel, I feed the S/PDIF from an external converter. (It will happily sync to the incoming clock.) For 4-channel I'll use the analog inputs as well.

It has a resonably flexible mixer interface although not easy to learn. Lots of built-in DSP.

It works well with Vegas using multiple ASIO busses or as a simple WAVE IN/OUT device.

My experience with Sound Blaster Live is several years out-of-date by now. The card I had (with the digital I/O daughter board) was locked in to an internal 48k clock. If you did digital I/O at 44.1k it would go through an intermediate conversion to 48k and then back to 44.1k.

I would hope that today's Sound Blaster has a more transparent digital I/O capability.

Streamworks Audio wrote on 7/27/2010, 11:10 PM
My computers are racked mounted - and as much as I love them.... the only thing is that making opening the PCs up to do upgrades can be a task LOL

At any rate - I tried my Sound Blaster Xi-Fi.... the first thing I noticed (after downloading and installing the latest drivers) is that they have added 64bit ASIO drivers - which is a plus!

I connected my optical SPDIF out from the Joe Meek to the optical SPDIF in on the SB and did a test recording... no issues.

The XI-FI does resample the digital input and apply gain changes etc. unless the option Bit Matched is selected.

And yes - that is the main complaint with my Firebox... is the noise - I find the noise is far too much that I wish.

Cheers,
Chris
Dach wrote on 7/28/2010, 5:24 AM
I've installed the M-Audio Delta 1010LT cards into my workstations and have been very happy with them.

Chad
robwood wrote on 7/28/2010, 6:39 AM
i use an RME Fireface 400 which has been great (used to use d1010 which also was good, but lacked driver support when vista/7 came out).
Steven Myers wrote on 7/28/2010, 8:22 AM
That's a disappointment about the Delta drivers. M-Audio used to be great about drivers. I'm still using a Delta 1010 in my DAW (XP)-- because of driver support and great latency.
I have one of the M-Audio Firewire interfaces. It's OK, but I don't need the mic pres, and the latency don't git it. I was thinking of buying another 1010 for my NLE machine (Win7), but if the drivers are not there, I'll need to go elsewhere.
Andy_L wrote on 7/28/2010, 9:12 AM
Echo's Mia is a PCI sound card with +4dBu in/out. Sound Quality is excellent.

http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/PCI/MiaMIDI/index.php
Guy S. wrote on 7/28/2010, 9:57 AM
I record my VO's directly into Vegas as well. We purchased a SoundBlaster Audigy2 card several years ago but it would not work correctly when we migrated it to a quad-core HP workstation 3 or 4 years ago. So.... I've been using the HP's built-in audio CODEC and it works just fine for our purposes.

I just put in a request for a new system and will also be evaluating a new sound card to go with it. I was leaning toward an external USB unit, though the combo you're using sounds very like a real winner.

Guy
GaryAshorn wrote on 7/28/2010, 10:05 AM
Have you considered any of the MOTU products with USB/firewire interface? I have been thinking going that routed as well for my system.

Gary
Steven Myers wrote on 7/28/2010, 10:11 AM
What is the real-world latency of the Echo Mia? If I want to run the basic tracks, plus a few plug-ins while I use input monitoring and record an additional track, will it choke at 2.5 ms or better?
Streamworks Audio wrote on 7/28/2010, 12:31 PM
RME Cards are great cards! But really a bit of overkill for just voice overs.

Echo Audio makes an excellent interface as well! We used to use an Echo Mona years ago on our dedicated audio workstations - overall very happy with them.

MOTU is and always have been my first choice for audio interfaces. We had the original 2408 back in the day... connected digitally to 3 Tascam digital mixers... that was sweet! Our audio workstation now runs a MOTU 828mk3 which is awesome! But again too much for the video work station where we only need to record voice overs.

For the moment I think the SB XiFi with the Joe Meek (which is a far better mic pre in my opinion vs. the mic pres included with audio interfaces... we even use it when recording to the MOTU and not use the 828 pres) works well.

Someday when and if we start working with more 5.1 or 7.1 projects then we will look at something else (another 828mk3 maybe).

Chris
arenel wrote on 7/28/2010, 12:53 PM
I have an Alesis firewire 8 track mixer with 4 P/As. I only use it for narration normally. Works well, but it did take a couple of tries to get the drivers working. I'd like to try the Alesis Mastercontrol, but it is a bigger investment and I am unaware of any Vegas folks using it.

Ralph
R0cky wrote on 7/28/2010, 5:10 PM
Just did a quick test in Soundforge of my internal realtek vs. my external Echo Layla 3G.

Recording with nothing connected to the inputs. 24 bit 96 kHz 2 channels.

Realtek:

RMS noise floor unfiltered unweighted: -89.5 dB - this is not bad compared to older mobos where I've measured -60 dB.

after 20-20K filter in Izotope Ozone 4 "digital" flavor EQ -90 dB

I have noticed using the realtek for playback that it also picks up electrical noise at a much higher volume than this if I don't mute some of it's internal inputs such as the analog CD input that these chips and some mobos still have.

Echo Layla:

RMS noise floor unfiltered unweighted: -101.5 dB
after 20-20K filter in Izotope Ozone 4 "digital" flavor EQ -106 dB

I regularly use it with 2 ms buffer settings in ASIO without problems with 8-10 audio tracks in Vegas with Izotope Alloy on the tracks and Ozone on the stereo bus. I have also measured it's intermodulation distortion in the past - don't have the data handy but I remember it was excellent.

I have a MIA in another machine but I don't use it much. It's noise performance is also excellent but I have no data on how well it works with low latency but I'd expect it to be fine as it is an internal PCI card not a firewire or usb device.

rocky
PeterDuke wrote on 7/28/2010, 6:16 PM
"Recording with nothing connected to the inputs"

You should load the input with a resistor equivalent to your mic (or preamp) output impedance (roughly). There is both current noise and voltage noise referred to the input. With short circuit input, the current noise dominates, and with open circuit the voltage noise dominates.

Edit: I think the noise sources dominate the other way round. (The old grey mare she aint what she used to be.) The conclusion is the same though.
PeterDuke wrote on 7/28/2010, 6:43 PM
Rocky, when you express the noise value in dB, what is the reference level? The peak (or RMS) of a sine wave which just starts to clip?
wombat wrote on 7/28/2010, 7:23 PM
I have been using Tascam's external usb US-122L for some years. It solved many input problems for me, is very clean, has worked flawlessly, and supplies phantom power if you want to use better mics.

The latest version of this card is the US-144mkII which you can see at:
http://www.tascam.com/products/us-144mkII;9,15,3818,14.html

It is not expensive, and in my view a lot safer bet than internal cards of moderate quality.
R0cky wrote on 7/28/2010, 8:25 PM
dB is referred to full scale digital calibrated to +4 dBu, at least on the Echo Layla. I have no clue where the Realtek mobo input level is but I would guess it's close to -10 dBV.

Yes there will be some noise due to source impedance and to first approximation it will be about the same for either set of inputs, especially if they are high impedance inputs. I used the line inputs on the Layla rather than the mic ones.

If you use an external amp e.g. a mic amp it will set the noise level as long as your conversion system is reasonably quiet.
PeterDuke wrote on 7/28/2010, 9:16 PM
I asked about reference level because we need to account for amplifier gain. If we reduce the gain we will reduce the input noise appearing at the output.

One way to make this measurement is to apply a tone or other recognizable signal to the input, with known voltage, eg 1 mV RMS, such that it is well above the noise level but does not cause clipping. Measure the RMS level of the output/recorded signal in dB. Then remove the signal and measure the output noise level. Take the difference to get the input noise level re 1mV. Note that line amplifiers will generally have lower noise than mic amps, so we should be careful to compare like with like.