Audio sync problem

BikerJim wrote on 6/16/2010, 9:36 AM

Hi,

I have searched, but 'audio sync' didnt provide anything useful, and a general google search turned up more people with the same problem, but no solution..

I have a Canon FS200 camcorder which produces widescreen PAL .mpg files. The raw files have no audio sync problem.

I created a movie in Vegas Movie Studio Platinum, added titles and credits, split each scene into smaller parts, and in the preview there is no audio sync problem anywhere along the timeline.

I rendered the movie using the MainConcept MPEG-2 type, with the template DVD Architect PAL Widescreen video stream. I havent changed the defaults, because you cant.

I then rendered the audio as Dolby Digital AC-3 Studio (*.ac3) with the same name as the video in the same directory.

Obviously there's no way of telling if this is where the audio sync problem is created, as it is now two separate files.

When I bring the video into DVD Architect the audio lags behind the video after about 5 minues and gradually gets worse throughout the movie until its really unwatchable. This is visible in the DVDA preview window prior to burning.

I am following the defaults, which should just work, no? What am I doing wrong?

Here is the output from the raw videos straight off the cam in case it helps:



General

Complete name                    : C:\VideoEditing\Raw Videos\20100611\20100611223900.mpg

Format                           : MPEG-PS

File size                        : 3.68 GiB

Duration                         : 1h 0mn

Overall bit rate                 : 8 649 Kbps



Video

ID                               : 224 (0xE0)

Format                           : MPEG Video

Format version                   : Version 2

Format profile                   : Main@Main

Format settings, BVOP            : Yes

Format settings, Matrix          : Default

Format settings, GOP             : M=3, N=12

Duration                         : 1h 0mn

Bit rate mode                    : Variable

Bit rate                         : 8 221 Kbps

Nominal bit rate                 : 9 600 Kbps

Width                            : 720 pixels

Height                           : 576 pixels

Display aspect ratio             : 16:9

Frame rate                       : 25.000 fps

Standard                         : PAL

Color space                      : YUV

Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0

Bit depth                        : 8 bits

Scan type                        : Interlaced

Scan order                       : Top Field First

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.793

Stream size                      : 3.50 GiB (95%)



Audio

ID                               : 128 (0x80)

Format                           : AC-3

Format/Info                      : Audio Coding 3

Mode extension                   : CM (complete main)

Duration                         : 1h 0mn

Bit rate mode                    : Constant

Bit rate                         : 256 Kbps

Channel(s)                       : 2 channels

Channel positions                : Front: L R

Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz

Video delay                      : -80ms

Stream size                      : 112 MiB (3%)

I just noticed the video part is VBR whereas the audio is CBR...do I need to pre-render the video to make it CBR or something?

This is the output from the rendered MPEG:



General

Complete name                    : C:\Users\buddin\Documents\Vegas Movie Studio PE 9.0 Projects\The Milk Machine\Renders\TheMilkMachine.mpg

Format                           : MPEG-PS

File size                        : 2.58 GiB

Duration                         : 1h 0mn

Overall bit rate                 : 6 105 Kbps



Video

ID                               : 224 (0xE0)

Format                           : MPEG Video

Format version                   : Version 2

Format profile                   : Main@Main

Format settings, BVOP            : Yes

Format settings, Matrix          : Default

Format settings, GOP             : M=3, N=12

Duration                         : 1h 0mn

Bit rate mode                    : Variable

Bit rate                         : 5 984 Kbps

Nominal bit rate                 : 9 500 Kbps

Width                            : 720 pixels

Height                           : 576 pixels

Display aspect ratio             : 16:9

Frame rate                       : 25.000 fps

Standard                         : PAL

Color space                      : YUV

Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0

Bit depth                        : 8 bits

Scan type                        : Interlaced

Scan order                       : Bottom Field First

Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.577

Stream size                      : 2.53 GiB (98%)

Hmm, variable bitrate mode...?

Cheers
Jim

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 6/16/2010, 9:40 AM

When I bring the video into DVD Architect the audio lags behind the video after about 5 minues and gradually gets worse throughout the movie until its really unwatchable. This is visible in the DVDA preview window prior to burning.

The DVD Architect preview is just that -- it depends on your computer hardware and audio card buffers. Since you did not provide any of your system specs it is impossible to speculate further as to the cause.
The preview is not your finished DVD.
Did you burn a DVD and play it?

BikerJim wrote on 6/16/2010, 9:52 AM

Yes, sorry I should have mentioned that - I tried a burn and the burned DVD also lags in a normal DVD player, so I know its not the burn process (although that /could/ be compounding it), the lag is being introduced somewhere between Movie Studio and DVDA's preparation process. Note that the videos are long, but I have tried to split them up into smaller parts but same problem persists, although I havent tried rendering all the sections separately and then bringing them into DVDA. That seems like a bit of a pain to have to do every time..? That would make the max video length about 5 minutes..(before it strats to lag)?

It really shouldn't be anything to do with my i7 930 with 12gig DDR3 RAM and 1GB Nvidia graphics card which I bought specifically to make Movie Architect useable.

musicvid10 wrote on 6/16/2010, 10:28 AM

Thanks for sharing some details.
This is uncommon, but not entirely unheard of esp. with PAL footage.
Opening a support ticket with Sony might be your best course.

BikerJim wrote on 6/16/2010, 10:47 AM

OK will do, thanks for thinking about it!

(i'll post back the solution if there is one)

jbolley wrote on 6/16/2010, 11:35 AM

I look forward to hearing a solution. I was just wondering if by chance the DVD-A project is set for NTSC and a different frame rate. I'm sure you've addressed this already but thought it was worth a mention.

Jesse

BikerJim wrote on 6/16/2010, 11:58 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the response, the project properties are set to PAL Widescreen (720x576), there are other options that seem similar, i.e. PAL (720x576) - might there be mileage in trying that?

Well, for now, I have found a workaround where I have rendered the original video and ac3 files to short >5 minute clips and brought the clips into DVD-A, made a playlist of the clips in order for a playall function and set up individual buttons for each scene selection on a sub-menu, and it works fine, except one of the scenes is about 8 minutes long and by the end the lag is noticeable. Out of interest, the video is ahead of the audio by the end, if that means anything?

I hope to hear from Sony Support soon with a better clue hopefully, that's going to be a pain if I have to do that each time...

MSmart wrote on 6/16/2010, 2:29 PM

So you've got the Studio version, same here.

Where's the audio file properties? There should be a template when rendering in VMS9PE that creates an mpeg file that includes audio (I always render to .avi so I don't know which template off hand) that you can use in DVDAS.

BTW, I saw in another thread of yours that you just bought VMS9PE. VMS 10 HD just came out, you may be entitled for a free (or discounted upgrade), contact customer service to verify.

GTOMike wrote on 6/19/2010, 6:40 AM

I'm having the same issue although I'm rendering from vegas pro 8, The camera is

canon point and shoot SD780 which is generating a 720 hd, 30p mov. (ntsc) file.

Plays fine in preview and etc. and rendering out to Mainconcept ntsc dvd architect

wide screen video stream. I think I rendered audio to dolby digital pro AC-3
instead of AC-3 Studio (I honestly don't know the difference between the two).

I haven't had time to play with different settings and I'm hoping you got info. from Sony or someone else has a handle on this.

I'm using DVD Architect 5 build 119.

Thanks,
Mike

BikerJim wrote on 6/20/2010, 4:10 AM

Well, here's the 'support' received from Sony Customer services, after carefully composing an email with all the details of my system and the problem, mediainfo files and lots of other stuff, it took a long time:

You currently have no active support plan. To purchase a support plan or to get more information, visit our support plan page or call us at 1.800.577.6642. To activate a recently purchased plan, call 1.877.SFT.WARE (738.9273).

WTF?!?! And only numbers in the United States of America??!? I bought and registered the software, but I dont get any support?!?!?! What /am/ I getting for my money exactly?

Unbelievable. They now want me to pay even more to help them fix their broken software. I have had enough of this, this clearly isnt a error, its a bug and the software is broken; it DOES NOT do what its simply supposed to do, and which other free software out there does without any problems. Truly truly unbelievable. Windows Movie Maker is better than this software, it really is; it actually makes movies and burns them to a DVD. Simple. This is not PRO activity, and I really shouldn't have to pay PRO prices to achieve it. The fact is that this would still be an issue if I HAD paid the 500euros they want for this pile of....

Good to know I am not the only one experiencing this, GTOMike, and telling indeed that Sony wont even look at it. And even more interesting this also happens in their "Pro'' version. Hah, what a bunch of charlatans.

After having being charged an extra 14GBP for a necesary codec (MPG2) in Soundforge TWICE, the software reinstalled to a different PC because I HAD TO UPGRADE my hardware to run this broken software at all, software I purchased based on my computer beating the 'minimum requirements' they list on their site, and now I find that it doesn't even do the basics properly.

GRRR I AM FURIOUS and I want my money back.

I have just gone through yet another DVD length movie cutting it into 5 minute chunks so that it is watchable, but every cut point freezes for a second (on my DVD player anyway) and its just not good enough.

ANYONE THINKING OF BUYING THIS CRIPPLEWARE - DONT! It will drive you mad. I'm going to look at Adobe's products, or any of the other ones available, as soon as I get my refund.

Thanks for everyone here trying to help, I appreciate it; you have been 1000% more helpful than Sony, who I PAID for this experience. Pfff. Sorry for the rant, but I am FURIOUS.

Cheers
Jim

For the search engines VEGAS VIDEO PROBLEMS BROKEN Sony thieves

TOG62 wrote on 6/20/2010, 5:10 AM

You should at least be able to get rid of the freezes between 5 min chunks by creating an audio/video compilation, rather than a playlist.

Mike

musicvid10 wrote on 6/20/2010, 9:42 AM

Uhh, you are way off base here.

You contacted Customer Service rather than opening a ticket with Technical Support as was suggested. They are two entirely different departments. Also, CS informed you of the paid TELEPHONE support plans, which again are entirely different than EMAIL TECHNICAL SUPPORT.

Before you have an aneurysm, calm down, follow the links at the top of this page to open a TECHNICAL SUPPORT ticket and wait for a response. Whether or not they are able to solve your problem, it won't cost you a penny.

If I had a problem with my car, would I be asking my question of the receptionist, or the service dept. manager?? Seems pretty obvious. Oh, and be nice.

BikerJim wrote on 6/20/2010, 12:00 PM

Musicvid - I'm not daft, just very annoyed.

That's exactly what I did, and that's exactly the response showing up after a couple of days, my ticket has been updated as 'new' from 'received'...beneath that no response other than that I dont have a support plan. If you think I am being impatient, well, I'm sorry but this is a serious flaw as far as I'm concerned, and I would expect at least an acknowledgment that they are looking into it. If its too hard to fix as it only affects a few people, then fine, I'm unlucky, but I want my money back.

I have calmed down a bit, no chance of ill health derived from this, the issue appears to happen to both PAL and NTSC rigs, on both the Pro and the Platinum versions from at least two customers who bother to post in forums about it... not everyone experiences it, or it doesnt bother people, or they just think 'it must be me', whatever, surely we're not the first to notice? Perhaps they're very busy responding to thousands of people with the same problem, who knows, but an ack doesn't take much.

If I am clicking the wrong buttons then I'm happy to stand corrected, but all I am doing is following my nose through the default settings that Vegas gives you to turn a home movie into a DVD, and thank heavens, it isn't just happening to me.

I look forward to a response from them, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm usually much nicer.

Thanks TOG62 for the tip about audio/video compilation, I'll try that on the next project, which I must get on with,

Cheers
Jim

MSmart wrote on 6/20/2010, 12:07 PM

Did you try using the DVD PAL which gives you both audio and video in the same file?

BikerJim wrote on 6/24/2010, 5:50 AM

Hi,

@MSmart - I'm not quite sure what you mean, but my original footage is PAL widescreen, so rendering to anything other than widescreen is not an option.

If I could just get to those MainConcept MPG2 settings that are greyed out...

Anyway, I have finally had a response from Sony technical support, telling me its not a known problem and asking me to upload some sample files. They havent sent me the link to upload them to yet of course, that would have been borderline efficient.

The saga continues, I'll post back if I get anywhere.

Cheers
Jim

BikerJim wrote on 7/23/2010, 7:21 AM

Still no solution, technical support suggested I use version 10 instead, as the custom button isnt greyed out in that version, but I don't own version 10, they havent given me a serial code for version 10, and I have already proven that v10 also has the same issue anyway, but at least you can work around the problem using the custom button. BUT this is a workaround and not a solution.

Tech support closed the issue and marked it as solved. HAH. good one.

They tell me that they are 'working on a patch', but I have already bought it and it doesn't work so I want my money back, end of story. I have had quite enough of this bs.

Good luck, I hope nobody else suffers the same issues as me, as you'll be banging your head against a brick wall for some time to come, I am going to try Adobe's suite next I think, they actually are a software house and not walkman manufacturers having a go at software.

Totally unimpressed with Sony Creative Software, utter rubbish, waste of time and money. Bye.

I dont hold much hope of getting my money back from this corporation, but in some way I hope I can warn others not to purchase.

NOTE : If your cam, or other video source exports an MPEG-2 (.mpg), do NOT buy this software.

Jim

KenJ62 wrote on 7/23/2010, 2:07 PM

I am very happy with Sony VMS. I am using the Canon HV20 which uses video tape and gives mpeg-2 files with an m2t extension. I just finished a 105 minute wedding video with DL DVDs and Blu-ray disks. I am very happy and satisfied.

I see that the Canon FS-200 is a standard definition camcorder which produces mpeg-2 files and stores them on Flash cards. I thought all recent camcorders saved video as mpeg-4 which usually has more problems for editing. So which mpeg-2 you shouldn't be having synch problems.

1. If you play your video from the camcorder to a TV is it in synch?
2. If you play your captured video on the PC is it still in synch?
3. If you play your timeline in Vegas before any editing has been done is it still in synch?

Looking at this Google search....

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=canon+fs200+audio+synch&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=720306754c349f16

it looks like your original files on the camcorder are .mod files which have been known to be a problem. You may be using a Canon utility to capture and save as mpeg? I think Vegas has a import files feature - try using import from a HDD camera to see if that works any better.

plekkie wrote on 7/25/2010, 6:59 AM

Hi BikerJim,

MSmart asked you in June for the audio properties of the rendered .ac3 file. Can you still post them? Is the total length exactly the same as the rendered video file (1h 0min)?

Could you render the audio part to LPCM (.wav) and let DVDA do the compression to .ac3, to see if that works?

NB: DVD compliant MPEG-2 video files should be "Top field first".

rrrrob wrote on 7/31/2010, 6:03 AM

just curious...do the video and audio streams appear to be the same length in Vegas before rendering?

plekkie: Vegas renders mpeg-2 files in lower field first only, as far as I can tell

BikerJim wrote on 8/4/2010, 11:55 PM

Yes, there is no sync problem before rendering, both audio and video are the same length.

This is a bug which sony have acknowledged, they are apparently 'working on it' (personally I dont believe a word of it, they are more likely to be fixing the version 10, which is also broken) so I have to wait for a patch to be released - so there's no need to scratch your head to figure this one out.

In short, the software is broken for anyone using Canon cameras (I *guess* they all produce the same video format) or at least the Canon FS200 Legria handycam, which is no small portion of the market I would guess.

In the meantime, my support question has been marked as 'solved' and I still have broken software. The last support reply was 'try this (with version 10)'. I dont have version 10, the demo has run out and I am not about to buy any more software from Sony. Ever.

This is not good enough, so I have given up on getting a refund (they are no longer responding to my emails, and yes I am still being nice) so I have sacked this piece of expensive broken crippleware for something that actually works.

I just hope that future potential customers can at least learn from my misfortune, I have posted warnings wherever I can find it being sold.

Good luck to all those for whom this isnt an issue, but spare a thought for those of us who bought it and it is (and I tried 'being nice' and it got me nowhere).

Sony sucks, money down the drain, end of story.

Regards
Jim