With something like the Sony HDR SR5e - pulling files off is like pulling of a mass storage device - won't it accept putting them back on in the same method? (ie - simply copying)

Not experimented that far yet.

Yes, it's a simple copy/paste, but the problem is, VMS won't export in AVCHD h.264. Only Vegas Pro does.

Cool - good to know on the camera. At least that gives Michaelt another option I suppose. AVCHD cam & Vegas Pro

Yes, I suggested this already as one of his options. You can upgrade to Pro for cheap right now. Personally though, I would just not go with an AVCHD camera, not yet.

The HG10 comes with software to read & write back to the camcorder.
You can create a avc/h264 file from Vegas by making you own customized templates (Vegas does not come with a true avchd template to render to a file, you have to make your own).
After you create the avc/h264 file you still have to use the software that came with the cam to write back to it's harddisk so it's indexed & part of the menu system for playback. Goodluck with the software that came with it, blows. Not to mention you need a fast computer like a Core2-duo or Core2 quad to get any productivity done, otherwise it will take hours to render a new avc/h264 file.
Buy a tape based cam like Eugenia suggests, you can't go wrong.

>Vegas does not come with a true avchd template to render to a file, you have to make your own.

You actually can't make your own, because VMS does not support "custom" h.264 dialogs. Only Pro does. The only thing one can do to not lose quality is to either export in HDV 1080/60i or uncompressed, then hope that the Canon application can read these files, and then let the Canon app do one more pass to re-encode in AVCHD h.264 and write that back to the cam. While this might be doable, it will take forever to export... Getting an HV20 is a better choice for this point in time. Eventually AVCHD-based cams will be the norm, but for now, HDV is better supported.

Yes, sorry, I meant Vegas Pro 8a, not VMS.
I couldn't agree more going with tape based hd-mpeg2, at least I can work with standard HDV on P4-2.8Ghz & 3.2Ghz computers. I prefer to shoot in the HDV format, like you say the format for avchd cams is still new and every new model seems to have something better.

I use a Q6600 quad to work with converting to avc/h264, the other computers are P4's.
A P4 takes a very long time to convert. Editing is next to impossible on a P4 unless you create proxies, and the proxies take a good time to create, not worth the time in my opinion.
I can edit avchd directly using Vegas Pro 8a on the Q6600, it's not to bad, yes, I should convert it first but for simple cuts, splicing & music tracks it works fairly well. To preview a transition I highlight the section and hit <Shift+B> for a quick preview.
Just glad I do own a HDV cam, much more flexible to work with HDV.

Thanks a lot for so detailed answers! Wow - I am really learning so much on this forum!

Ok, I am convinced:
1) AVCHD is not at its full potential yet (15mbps), HDV is the way to go (25mbps).
2) All my videos go through editting, so random access is not important - tapes are perfectly fine.
3) Both software (VMS) and hardware (core2 duo) work better with HDV than with AVCHD.
4) I have VMS 6, so upgrading to VMS Platinum 8 ($50) is much cheaper than buying all-new Vegas Pro 8 ($180) for exporting AVCHD.

One last thing (where I started from) - is it possible to transfer VMS-edited files to the HDV tapes? I am looking at the manual of HV20 and can't really find this.

Again, thanks a lot to everyone!

Michael.

I used VMS 8 (with latest updates) extensively to capture, edit & write back to tape in both HDV and Standard DV modes (I wouldn't mix the tapes, use 1 for standard dv recording & another for just HDV).
I was using a Sony HC3 which is also a good HDV cam. It may be less expensive than the HV20 now because Sony has produced newer models.
Choosing between them is always confusing. What one does the other doesn't and vice versa.

The one feature I like with the Sony HDV units is they have an internal downconvert feature. When you activate this feature in the Sony HDV cams anything recorded in HighDefinition on the tape is output standard definition via the firewire port (standard dv capturing). So you can quick connect it to a dvd recorder and transfer the whole tape to make a quick dvd.
The Canon HV20 doesn't have this down convert feature IF you recorded in the HDV mode, but you can always use the analog s-video jack to dub to a dvd recorder (I think). I doubt you would see a difference in quality versus firewire. Some dvd recorder firewire inputs aren't that good, analog can sometimes be better.
Both are good cams. Mine is better though, why.... because it's mine ;)

Yes, VMS can export HDV back to tape. Check some of the best HV20 samples here:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/19089/Samples_by_the_New_Wave_of_Videographers
and click through to their title to watch them in HD.

Just wanted to say thanks Eugenia for your educational posts, and especially the links. The old story of a picture worth a thousand words thing :) I saw your videos at vimeo.com, and they are beautiful, but I wouldn't expect anything less from you ;) Thanks again. Cin

Oh so knowledgeable crew,
I've been wanting to take the HD plunge and have been waiting for the right moment. I see Canon has a new HF100 HD which does 17 Mbps AVCHD to a flash card.
Canon HF100 on Engadget

Could I put the flash card in a reader on my PC and edit AVCHD directly with VMS8?
But I can't output a h264 HD file without Vegas Pro?
I'm on an AMD Athlon 64 dual core (3800+) with 2Gb RAM. Am I in for a painful editing experience?

>Could I put the flash card in a reader on my PC and edit AVCHD directly with VMS8?

You need to copy the files on your hard drive, you can't edit correctly via a flash card, neither the files VMS8 will put there are readable later from the camcorder.

>But I can't output a h264 HD file without Vegas Pro?

Exactly.

>I'm on an AMD Athlon 64 dual core (3800+) with 2Gb RAM. Am I in for a painful editing experience?

So-so for AVCHD.

Thanks so much for the response and guidance.
It looks like the Canon HD camcorder will have to be bought with Vegas Pro in mind.
Upgrading the editing computer will probably have to wait. It's a crazy NVidia SLI rig with video cards and CPU water cooled. I don't have the time or patience to slap a new MB and CPU in it right now.

I knew I could count on this forum to steer me right.

Eugenia, thanks a lot again for so detailed answers.

You recommended to remove pulldown for 24p videos. I am a total beginner with that, so I don't exactly understand why. The tutorial says "if the TV-set is not your (only) destination for your work then the pulldown removal must be performed..."

Well, I am somewhat confused. Is pulldown removal needed for editing like making photos or slow motions or other special effects ?

Let's say I want to make a 24p video with HV20, then edit it with VMS (nothing fancy, just fade-in/fade-out effects between different cuts) and then export the edited footage back to HV20 in order to watch it on HDTV. Is pulldown removal needed ?

Also, if later on I want to play edited footage on a Blu-ray player, is there an advantage in pulldown removal?

michaelt,
Read Eugenia's first replay you to this/your thread.
She provided links for you that will answer your question about pull down.

Here they are if I copied them correctly:

AVCHD 24p pulldown removal:
eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/01/04/canon-avchd-24p-pulldown-removal/
HDV 24p pulldown removal: eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/07/13/canon-hv20-24p-pulldown/