Thanks for your response.
My questions with that are....
If I render out from vegas into a mt2 render. I start off at the 1440x1080 60i project. For now since most of my clients aren't up to speed with bluray, I am having to put it to DVD.
Now, if i render to a mt2. Am I to choose the DVD output from the dropdown menu in the customize tab in vegas. Or do I keep it in the HDV setting. I read that I should also bump the video quality up to 31 from the default 15.
My main question is... if I do all this then bring it to DVDA 5. It still wants to compress the video, with this being done with two compressions now, is my overall quality going to be crappier.
This is why I was rendering as an AVI in 1440x1080 60i in 5.1.

I'm good at editing but am a little behind on the tech part.

If you put it to DVD with standard definition, use in Vegas the mainconcept mpeg2 templates for the DVDA, "DVD Architect NTSC video stream widescreen". In addition use the AC3 Pro encoder with the 5.1 template. Give the audio file the same name as the video file - in the same folder. And use this files for authoring.

I don't see the option for the AC3.... under the audio tab, audio mode.. my options are stereo, joint stereo, duochannel or mono.
Or am I looking in the wrong place?
Do I have to make two seperate files... render this twice? One with just video and one with just audio and combine them in DVDA?
If it isn't too much to ask can you try rendering a small sample in vegas as the avi 1440x1080 60i and prepare a dvd disc with it in DVDA 5.0. - you don't have to burn it.
Then look at the prepared vob file in the prep folder and tell me if you have the same messed up video as mine?

You find the AC3 Pro encoder at file/render. Yes, you have to render twice - the video and the audio file separate.

I have done it like that now. Everything works, However.
The one thing I don't like about doing it like this is if there were two seperate files that I wanted to put on one DVD. ex- wedding ceremony and reception. From what I see I almost have to combine the two projects and render as one in order for it to "optimize" them both to fit on one disc. Otherwise it will render the one to fit on a disc and render the other to fit on a disc but not fit together. Which was not an issue when I did it as an AVI file.
I was able to "optimize" the disc within DVDA after pulling two different avi's in together.

I am not sure if I see your point. As long as you render the AC3 file and the m2v file with the same name, both files will be imported automatically, when you import the video file into a DVDA5 project. And the size optimization should and wil take both parts into account?

oh yeah for the ac3 and video files they are the same and import together. I'm talking about adding two different projects together on one disc.
When I did it the avi way I could have the "ceremony" avi. (1 file) and the "Reception". avi (2nd file) combined on one disc by adjusting the optimizing in DVDA to make them both fit.
when I render each of the two projects now as m2t video streams for DVDA, it seems to want to "render to fit" each file to max 4.7 gigs. When I combine the two projects in DVDA it is now at 135% of the 4.7 gigs with no option to "optimize disc". it's hard to explain. I hope you understand. Did you try rendering to an avi and import to DVDA to see if you have the same problem as my "interlacing issue"?

Understand what you're saying with the space issue - just don't have an answer at the moment.

Irrelevant of v 4.5 vs 5... The interlacing-type symptoms you're getting with your conversion kind of sound like maybe wrong field order. Based on the error in Vegas you might also have a problem with your source file. Reducing your height from 1080 to 480 I'd be surprised if you had any actual interlacing left... A wrong field order before hand could effect the picture that gets shrunk. Or of course broken software could cause it.

Personally I like the crisper, faster resize in V/Dub or AviSynth, & haven't used that feature on complete videos in Vegas for years, so unfortunately I don't have a lot of experience with Vegas/DVDA re-sizing, & no ideas other than those guesses at the moment - if you want to post a link to some stills or clips, myself & hopefully others will take a look to see what we think is happening.

Being too dark could be bad translation of the color spaces, &/or poor color space handling during the resize. DVDA might be choking when it converts the HD colors to SD - something that might not have appeared in v 4.5, since 4.5 probably didn't know about HD color. You might have to use Vegas or v 4.5 then, until 5.x gets fixed?

If the HD file Doesn't make it through Vegas, there are programs to repair the stream, but you'd have to use m2v & separate audio files, then pick up a bit rate calculator to help you adjust the mpg2 encoding bit rate for Vegas. If you wanted a simpler solution, there are converters & ft ends that could make 480 avi files out of your HD, & you could feed DVDA those avi files.

Thank you for your reply.
I have been in contact with Sony It since last Thursday uploading many different samples.
I today provided them with source files, rendered files from vegas in avi and m2t, .mtv as well as the final output from DVDA5 as a rendered project, the vob file.
The one thing they suggested today was to turn off the the interlace feature in DVDA5 and put it to progressive scan in the media properties. This worked with an avi file. So to me that is the problem right there. it's definately an interlacing issue in the compression from full 1440x1080 60i avi to a 720x480 16:9 interlaced-lower field first m2t through DVDA5.
They have sent all of my samples to the engineers to see if they can replicate my results.
but for now, at least I have a few options.
But I would like to be able to do what I am used to doing.

"but for now, at least I have a few options"

Cool

Thanks for keeping us posted as well - I'll keep my eyes open for any interlacing related issues.

Going from 1080 60i to 480i, in theory you'd probably expand the 1440 to 1920, then split the frames into individual, half height fields, resize them to ~853 x 240, then re-interleave (interlace) the 2 fields back to individual 480 height frames. Blending the individual scan lines for the fields would be a given I'd think, and the regenerated frame when the two were put back together usually shows the effects of that blending - the results in my experience are *almost* the same as a blended de-interlace on 480i video. If it's a true 60i, I'd imagine there'd be some more blending cutting back to 29.97 unless they just used decimation, and Vegas (like most NLEs) tends to do a softer resize (IMHO). I'll have to put that on my list to check, so I have some idea what's possible, where, using what. Thanks again.

lol wow!
man I don't know too much about how it all works, just as long as it works.
It's nice to know there are people out there that understands how it all works and can help people like me.
Thanks again.

FWIW...
Took a quick look at the resize built into DVDA (4 - 5) & I was wrong - apologies. The only thing I can say in my defense it that I try to avoid resizing in anything but V/Dub or AviSynth, haven’t really compared resizing in Vegas/DVDA for several years &/or versions, and I’ve never compared downsizing 1080i. DVDA does regenerate definite fields going from 1080i to 480i. I had unfairly thought DVDA’s resize wasn’t that sophisticated. Again I apologize. Despite that, I’m not a convert yet. ;-)

I would have liked to overlay some frame snapshots with a difference blend, rather than just “eyeballing” the results, but DVDA distorted the frame aspect a bit - I’m not sure how meaningful overlaying stills would be after trying to stretch things back into shape. Resize results were still a bit softer, but to be fair, V/Dub & AviSynth resize routines can include some slight sharpening. It also *appears* that DVDA shifts the secondary fields vertically upwards a bit, and interlace scan lines can seem more pronounced, though that might just be the way things look because of the suspected vertical shifting.

All in all DVDA resizing [from 1080i -> 480i] isn’t bad at all, & if that’s what anyone wants to use, Cool, I won’t argue otherwise. On the other hand, there’s better. For better or worse I didn’t experience any color shifting or problems with interlacing other than what I’ve mentioned. That doesn’t mean problems don’t exist - I just never experienced them.

Testing methodology in case anyone’s interested:
Isolated a short test clip from a 1080i mpg2 file using Cuttermaran. I then took the optional step of muxing the m2v in TMPGEnc’s Mpeg Tools - without an audio file - to add stream info to the file (that just speeds things up in DVDA & helps prevent errors). That mpg was imported into v 4 & 5 of DVDA, where I rendered a 16:9 NTSC SD DVD project to hard drive using different combinations of field order settings. Next PgcDemux was used to strip out the m2v from the title set VOB files, & the video was again run through TMPGEnc’s Mpeg Tools to get an mpg that Vegas would accept as is on the time line.

A comparison file was generated first using DGIndex on the test clip, then importing a 2 line avs file into Virtual Dub - the avs file lets V/Dub use AviSynth to access the original mpg2 in YUV colorspace. I then used V/Dub’s std resize filter, going straight to 720 X 480, rendering mjpeg avi. With that avi on the Vegas timeline I generated a std DVDA widescreen mpg file.

Finally in a 720 x 480 widescreen project in Vegas, I put all these mpg files on the timeline, navigated to a frame with pronounced interlacing, and by muting/un-muting tracks, was able to compare differences between the downsized tracks & the original in the preview window. Over the years I’ve found that since by design (or nature) our eyes are tuned to pick up movement & contrast, rapidly switching between overlays, or in this case muting/un-muting tracks, lets you pick up on even pretty subtle differences.

Pay Dirt!!! - sort of... maybe... well, don't know if this helps or points to another potential, but relatively minor problem.

Took another look this afternoon... If you encode to the HD 1440 x 1080 avi template in Vegas, that template uses the Old Cinepak codec, which at 100% quality is still broken at best. At least that's the *preliminary* results I wanted to post while I had a chance. There doesn't seem to be anything new DVDA5 adds in the way of files I've found that might be related. It could be registry settings because the HD 1440 templates are added to Vegas 7 too. IF that's the case reverting to DVDA 4.5 might have zero effect by itself - might have to remove reg keys & reinstall Vegas 8 & DVDA 4.5...

At any rate, encoding any video in Vegas with that codec problems are obvious. Running a file created using that HD template thru DVDA produces a file just like that described - it's compressed to 1/2 the color range, with black lines too severe to be interlacing.

thanks for checking into this.
Yes exactly. That is the results I am getting.
Here is Sony IT's final solution for me to bandage the issue:

Engineering took a look at the files and here is what they found. They said that there is interlacing occurring in the source footage in Vegas. Because of this the interlacing is carrying over during the render in Vegas and it is not being added during re-compression in DVD Architect. What they have suggested doing is rendering your footage as follows:

File format: Main Concept MPEG2 Template: DVD Architect NTSC widescresn video stream. Then for the audio you would select file format: Dolby Digital AC-3 Template: Default. With these settings selected there would be no re-compression in DVD Architect. Once the file is in DVD Architect you will want to set up your properties to the settings that you want and then follow the steps I had outlined in a previous email to burn your disc:

1. Open either the rendered .avi, or .m2t file in DVD Architect and double click on the file and go to Track Media under the Media Properties section.
2. Click on the Video file path to the right and you will have a drop down menu that will allow you to select Media Properties. In the filed order option select the None(progressive scan) option.
3. Burn the disc. At this point the preview will still show up the way that it does if you use the Best setting, as well as the Stretch preview to fit window. However, the burned disc will not have the interlacing that you were seeing.

Engineering has been made aware of the preview screen issue, but for the time being if you use these steps you will end of with a disc that does not contain the interlacing. Have you tried burning a disc from the original rendered footage you submitted using the DVD Architect settings above?

Then I asked is there something I'm doing wrong in import or is the interlacing suppose to be there?


To answer your questions:

1. Yes, the interlacing will be there as it is shot in HDV 1080-60i which is interlaced, not progressive.
2. No, there is no setting on import that is wrong, the footage was shot in HDVD 1080-60i so the interlacing is inherent in the footage.
3. I am not sure why you were not seeing the interlacing in the previous versions as engineering told me that they saw the same interlacing from the files you submitted in 4.0 and 4.5.


Before you render the video you can right click on the clips in the time line and go to switches, reduce interlace flicker. Then take a look at the rendered file and see what it looks like. Keeping in mind that the preview mode in the "Best" setting is a known issue. Regardless of how it appears in this window, please try burning it to a DVD and then check the playback.

So... basically. They know there is an issue that wasn't present before, here is a work around solution as we don't know how to correct the real issue at hand.
Unreal eh!

it pisses me off that they say that the interlacing issue can be seen in the 4., 4.5 test.
I make about 25-30 wedding videos a year using vegas and DVDA. Do you think if it was present before I would not have noticed it?
oh well, what can you do?

Back to basics, sounds like they're asking you to render your footage to DVD as progressive, & that might not work at all... rendering std DVD 720 x 480 it does indeed make a difference whether the video is interlaced or not. Interlacing produces a very different visual effect than what you’ll get using progressive. Some video folks, often the more PC oriented, together with film buffs will swear by de-interlaced video & progressive. It helps produce a *film look*, and can look much better on a PC, where the needed de-interlacing of video on playback can & is often less than perfect (or broken). You also have the novice problem: going through video, frame by frame, interlaced video just looks wrong to these folks.

Any TV that doesn’t use a picture tube is probably progressive, and it should normally de-interlace video by itself - the majority of TV is interlaced after all. On a std TV using a picture tube, it needs an interlaced signal. If the video is progressive (de-interlaced), the source [in this case a DVD player], will interlace the video so the TV can work with it. The way it works is each frame is displayed twice, once for the top field, & once for the bottom. You don’t have any motion changes between fields... instead of 60 fields per second of motion, you’ve got half that.

So in a nutshell, rendering progressive in DVDA is anything but a neutral change... You might like it better, or not, but it will be different.
----------------

I’ve only been able to play with this a little here and there - sorry - but my thinking so far is this:..

Technically it’s no more difficult to resize a 1440 wide interlaced clip than it is to resize one that’s 1920 pixels wide. Boil it all down to the essential steps and everything’s identical - you might have different resizing routines to choose from [i.e. bilinear, bicubic, spline etc], but the input and output sizes are just figures you plug in as if it were a calculator. Interlacing does make the job more difficult, but the figures you plug in - the before & after sizes - are irrelevant. So if anything doesn’t work consistently - just like a calculator - then there’s a problem. [That’s not to say that all results will be equal: increasing the frame size for interlaced video often just doesn’t work *visually* for example, but the actual programming code and process work just fine.]

Not being able to work with 1440 video could be a design problem, since in trying to make things fool proof, some developers &/or programers add code to try to prevent you from doing something that they assume might look bad or not work. BUT, a huge number of people in video related work don’t really understand the rather old-fashioned stuff, like what pixel aspects really are & why, &/or the very basics of wave theory... And that’s fine - you just need really to know what works AND not worry about it. Maybe someone wrote some code based not on what works, but on misunderstood theory?

Or not being able to work with 1440 might be a glitch: ***Edit***: it seems the problem is broken code for cineform's cfhd.dll, plus *maybe* problems in DVDA5 decoding it... CIneform that looks and plays good everywhere else still messes up in DVDA5 encoding.

The first tests I ran with the HD intermediate template used the Cinepak codec, & another day defaulted to Cineform. I *think* that the Cineform codec was unavailable for some reason, so Vegas picked the next codec in line alphabetically. I just used whatever the default was. That’s not to say that the Cineform codec behaved... Encoding existing mpg2 at 1080i to HD 1440 X 1080i using the HD template with the Cineform codec produced different, but still nasty results.

Tests I’d like to run include encoding in Vegas to 1440 x 1080i using the HD template & all the codecs on my system - Vegas/DVDA share a lot of the same code for encoding video. I also want to encode to 1440 X 1080 without the template to see if it’s just the template that’s messed up... the only thing I can think of that using the template might add is the 60i flag, but as always I could be wrong. Or it may not be adding it correctly - just thought of that. Figuring out what might be happening just helps to narrow down what to look for. ***Edit***: Things seem to work fine without using cinepak or cineform. While research will point out several different implementations of HDV 1080 60i, depending on camera & settings used, there doesn't seem anything at all unusual about the Vegas avi HDV template itself... nothing that couldn't be duplicated filling in the blanks in the custom dialog for the default avi template.

The hard part is isolating the true cause - i.e. if changing a file or registry entry fixes things. Somewhere along the line either Vegas 8 or DVDA adds the 1440 templates in a way that they’re accessible in Vegas 7. In order for DVDA5 to break things, something changes between DVDA 4/4.5, & 5 - what is it? One way to tell would be to monitor the DVDA5 install using something like InstallWatch with a virgin Windows install - another is to go thru the set-up files to see what files are different, & if the newer versions were installed or not (that’s one thing I’ve been playing with so far). Sometimes I’ve found it easier to undo a file or registry change to see if it cures anything.

Once again, wow!
What is it you do for a living? Nuclear physicist ?
Ya, this totally screws me up. I am so used to being able to do things one way, it worked for me. Now I have to rethink everything... is this going to work if I do it like this... or am I wasting my time.
So In your opinion do you think there is an apparent difference in look with the (progressive) feature turned on? Would the .m2v for DVDA NTSC widescreen be what I should be using?
With my DVD's I make full interactive video menues as well as the main videos. I just loved rendering once and pulling everything in as .avi and DVDA already knowing how much I could fit on a standard DVD. Being able to play with the optimizing. This is something I can't do if i render to .MTV.
I don't know....
I'm pissed!
I've learned more from two people then Sony has ever revealed.
You spend all this money on their products with little to no oversight as to how to use it. Their support sucks. If they didn't have this forum, I don't know how I'd ever be able to find out answers to my questions.
Thanks again for your help.

All right - I think I've got some answers...

What I'd suggest is backing up your system, just in case, and trying different codecs as a substitute for cineform in your last step in Vegas... There are several available - usually there are trade-offs where one might be faster while another has smaller files sizes, so try a couple out with very small test files to see what you like best - what works best with the footage from your camera [different codecs transform & store color data differently, but different cameras have different color characteristics also].

If you wanted to try something different, check out the Debugmode Frame Server. What it does is take the video from Vegas and feed it to another program, like DVDA, without creating an actual file in between. Instead of having a cineform or other format video file on your hard drive, you'll have a small, *fake* avi file to import into DVDA. Farmeserving should give you the most accurate picture and color data possible, it takes only a few minutes to set up, and it's free.

Importing avi video (rather than m2v etc) into DVDA, particularly if you use one of the lossless codecs, will give you better quality. On the other hand, since you're downsizing your video, you'd have to decide if your final DVD reflected that extra quality, or if it was discarded along with the extra pixels. Using avi is also safer: mpg2 compression relies on key frames, so if you have a bad (or questionable) frame, &/or software hiccups during the final encode in DVDA, you can have a good sized (several frame) drop out. I've had it happen - could rarely find a reason - and it means encoding all over again. Missing one frame in an avi file you have to be *really* sharp-eyed to *almost* spot it.

RE: progressive vs interlaced, you'd have to try it both ways to see what you prefer visually - what works best in an artistic sense with your work. There is a very definite difference. Here's what I found about Vegas/DVDA...

I found the cineform codec to be a big problem in Vista when Vista was new, and this seems to hold true now. Testing this out I had a lot of things happen &/or problems that weren't repeatable, so I can only guess that the cineform codec as packaged with Vegas is to put it bluntly, maybe a little flaky - at least on this system I used for testing. In fairness, it could be reacting to influence from a lot of other video software & drivers installed. This is the stuff I could repeat, time and again...

The avi "HDV 1080-60i intermediate" template in Vegas is just a regular avi template set to use the cineform codec [scroll down in the Small description window below the template drop down box in the Render As dialog]. The easiest solution to cineform problems is to use some other codec besides cineform - mjpeg works, or could try Lagarith, MSU, Mindvid, or many of those listed in the Tools section of videohelp.com, under codecs. If you do try other codecs, you'll often have to set them to RGB to match Vegas/DVDA rather than YUV, which is often the default (for greater accuracy). Definitely do not use the Cinepak codec - a couple of times cineform wasn't available (?!!!) so the HDV template defaulted to cinepak. To select a codec first select the HDV template,click the "Custom..." button, go to the "Video" tab, then the "Video format" drop down box - click the Configure button to set the encoder variables. If you want, once it's set save it as a new template by typing in a new name & clicking the disc icon.

With Vegas Pro 8 & DVDA 5 installed, the cineform codec is broken in Vegas. You can see the results in any Windows program that will play the video, or just by importing the results to the timeline in a new Vegas project. With everything exactly the same except the codec used (as set above), the results were first class, so the problem isn't in Vegas, or the source etc... It is possible to encode to cineform without problems if you substitute the "cfhd.dll" file with the one that comes with Vegas 7. For me though rendering was still broken in DVDA [see following 2nd paragraph]

TO get the Vegas 7 version:... Vegas' set-up files are copied to your hard drive in the Program Files\Sony Setup folder by default. Cfhd.dll is in "cineform.cab", which can be expanded using Winzip etc. or just by Windows Explorer. Installing Vegas happens in 2 steps: 1st the files are written to that set up folder, then the installation is run - canceling the install after the files are copied to the set up folder will let you access cineform.cab, so if you don't have the Vegas 7 set-up folder still on your hard drive, you can get it.

DVDA rendered to SD DVDs just fine using 1440 x 1080 video encoded with any codec besides cineform. Even with the Vegas 7 cfhd.dll in place, DVDA5 encoded cineform video with a strobing effect. DVDA4 behaved just fine, with no difference on the final DVD between an imported cineform source & other codecs.
-----------
In a nutshell then, the Vegas 8 cineform codec is broken with DVDA 5 installed. I think that this latest version of cfhd.dll relies on more Windows files & the data they provide than earlier versions, according to Dependency Walker. This extra data isn't provided by a Vegas 7 install - use the newest version of cfhd.dll in Vegas 7, in a Windows install without Vegas 8, & cineform encoding is still broken. It would make sense that maybe Vegas 8 adds these files &/or settings, while DVDA5 maybe takes them away. If that's what's happening, reverting back to DVDA 4.5 might or might not help - all you can do is perform a backup in case, & try. If newer files or settings aren't removed uninstalling DVDA5, don't know if reinstalling Vegas 8 & DVDA 4.5 will restore everything or not - it's often very hard to go backwards in Windows.