Basic question from an expert user.

drk wrote on 9/13/2004, 1:56 AM

I've been using Vegas audio for a few years now, and I'm very fluent in methods, terminology, and all that stuff.. But I have a basic question or two:

I produce bass-heavy hip/hop, electronic, and industrial music. I've always mixed tracks down to read out on Bus A at -0.1db or lower- just like a real mixer, "going into the red is bad," right?

Yet, if I mix loud and the Bus reads out at a higher volume (like 3db, for instance) I notice that when I consolidate tracks to a new wav, the new wav reads out at 0.0db (even if the original mix is too high). What's going on here? How does Vegas "mix" levels (by itself upon consolidation/rendering)? I know that a cracked signal still cracks after rendering to a wav, but why does it read at 0.0?

Also, I notice that my tendency to mix things at -0.1 or under results in "quieter" sounding beats than people who use other programs (i.e. Reason)... To get good warm-sounding tracks, SHOULD I be recording with a Bus A at +3.0 instead of -0.1? Or should I stick with "playing chicken with the red' like I do with a physical mixer?

Finally, does it make a difference between the following scenarios:
1) Mixing each audio track so that Bus A reads at around 0.0 with "Bus A volume" set to 0.0
2) Mixing each audio track levels reading over 0.0 on Bus A (ie +3.4db ) and then correcting it by lowering "Bus A volume" by -3.4db.

Thanks for any help. I can post a link to a track that I made if that would help, but I'd rather not if it's not necessary.

Comments

farss wrote on 9/13/2004, 7:12 AM

AS Vegas does all the calcs using floating point operations then the sum of a numer of tracks can easily exceed 0dBFS. However in the final .wav file you cannot exceed 0dBFS, there's just no value higher so the peaks are all set to the max value and when you play that back it'll read 0dBFS.
Of course it'll most likely sound horrid too.
Beyond that it'll have to leave it to the real experts for advice on how to get a fatter sound, but I'm certain they'd agree clipping isn't the answer, compression is but there's way more to that than I'd like to advise anyone on.

Bob.

cosmo wrote on 9/13/2004, 7:23 AM

Sounds to me like you need to familiarize yourself with mastering. Render your file at straight from Vegas at -1. Open you file in a program with mastering capabilities like SoundForge or for me, Wavelab. Add a filter that will boost the signal and compress it to 0.0 smoothly. I've used a built in Peak Master in Wavelab and plugs like Waves L1 and L2 but mostly I use the Steinberg Loudness Maximizer. This was you can pump up your signal really loud without distorting it out.

drbam wrote on 9/13/2004, 7:32 AM

A good rule of thumb for ANY popular music genre is to mix with your loudest peaks between -6 and -3 db. This allows sufficient room for the mastering engineer to "fix" any problems and to bring the levels to the loudness you desire. If you're doing your own mastering, this approach still applies.

If you are going over 0.0 in Vegas, you've got distortion–period. For a variety of factors, you may not be able to hear it but its there. You should absolutely avoid going over 0 no matter what. Skilled mastering can make your tracks as loud as anybody elses. Of course this is assuming that the tracks are well recorded to begin with and that the final mix is pretty good.

Comparing mixes done in Reason and Vegas is a waste of time IMO, as they (the apps) are not the determining issue in the context of your question, ie; loudness. Loudness has to do with other factors such as how the original tracks were recorded and what was used, eq, compression, mics and pres, what was used during mixing, – the list can be extensive.

drbam

drk wrote on 9/13/2004, 6:15 PM

Thanks for ALL of the replies people.

But the mastering comment is what I'm looking for I think-

Yeah, I am afraid to go over 0db, and I assumed that vegas "clips" hot mixes and that they still sound like crap.

Sounds like I don't know about Mastering, though...
Now, I have SoundForge and Wavelab, but I always get lost in the FX and I only seem to use these programs for individual tracks. What "options" or menu items to I get to in order to "add a filter that will boost the signal and compress it to 0.0 somoothly"? And what's up with Steibburg Loudness Maximizer.

Either way, thanks a bunch for the helpful replies. Over 15 message boards, and this is the only one that knows anything. :)

cosmo wrote on 9/13/2004, 9:54 PM

as drbam says, keep your level a little low coming out of Vegas. By doing so - you have room to play around a bit in Wavelab. I say Wavelab cause that's what I'm familiar with.

After rendering, open your file in Wavelab and be sure the Master panel is open and viewable. The master panel will be divided in three sections - the effects, the meter and the dithering section. The effects/plugins area just looks like six blank(and black) slots. If you click on them you can access all of the installed plugins. Wavelab has a good Peak Master that installs with it. You'll see it in the list when you click on the blank spot. Once you select it, its interface will pop up and it defaults to 0.0db top with 0.0db input gain. Increase the input gain until it is loud enough to suite your taste. Eventually it will start to distort so be careful. It's a good idea to listen to your track side by side with one that you like the mix on.

After you have added this Peak Master plugin and set it properly, you aren't quite finished. You'll need to render the new file. Oddly enough, the Render button is located on the Master Panel at the bottom of the Dithering section. Hit render and you'll be able to take it from there.

Hope that helps. And yes, this forum kicks *ss.

drbam wrote on 9/14/2004, 7:26 AM

Since you acknowledge that you "don't know about mastering," then learning more about it should definitely be your first priority. There's a forum dedicated to mastering at recording.org where there's a ton of useful material there and elsewhere. I'd start with the RO forum and you'll find some links to other helpful sites. There's also some excellent books (texts) on the subject that you should study if you're even remotely serious about producing a commercially viable product. Mastering is a complex art and you will discover that most artists, producers and mixing engineers choose to have their mastering done by a mastering engineer in a dedicated mastering studio.

drbam

drk wrote on 9/14/2004, 9:46 PM

Thanks again to everyone for the useful replies.

I want to do my own mastering, so this info helps. I've mastered with boards, but this digital thing is addictive. In my opinion, sending my music off to a professional is like leaving a child in someone else's care.

Anyways, thanks for the help.

adowrx wrote on 9/15/2004, 9:20 PM

Check out multi band compression.
Loud is not necessarily better. Try adding 3:1 after some multi band and cut eq.

-j

PipelineAudio wrote on 9/15/2004, 10:59 PM

take drbam's advice, if you dont even have the ears or experience to hear vegas' main buss clipping, you got no business mastering your album

Sit in on the mastering session, try to hear what he is doing try to understand what is happening...I LOVE going to the mastering lab! After you see what a skilled mastering engineer does, things will change for you, and I mean QUICKLY. Its worth every penny just to hang out.

drk wrote on 9/19/2004, 5:16 PM

I have tons of experience in live sound and I would never let a vegas file clip- just a hypothetical example in my first post.

What I need to know is the difference between physical analog board mixing and digital soundwave mastering. But all of these replies have been good. Thanks a bunch.