Best Bang for Your Buck Vegas system

GlennChan wrote on 2/26/2004, 9:36 PM
Ok let's come up with recommendations for the most bang for your buck Vegas system. I'm bored. :)

(price are approximate newegg.com prices)
***Processor: Pentium 2.8"C" 800FSB Hyperthreading $187***
Processor speed is the best factor in determining render speed, so I wouldn't skimp here. Pentiums seem to be faster than AMD64 and AMD XPs/Bartons at rendering and DVD encoding with the Main Concept encoder. Prescotts run really hot, cost more, and are slower clock for clock, so I don't think they're a good idea. Xeons are not bang for your buck, and are costly. Vegas isn't multithreaded well so you really see diminishing gains with Xeons.
Other choices: Pentium 3.0"C", 3.2"C"

***Case + PSU: Antec 3700AMB $79***
This case comes with a 350W power supply, so it's great value. It has lots of room and a 120mm fan in the back. Bigger fans move more air at lower noise levels.
Other choices: Antec 3700BQE (updated model with a few improvements, costs more), Antec Sonata (quiet design, 380W PSU), other case + bigger PSU

***Motherboard: Abit IS7 $94***
This otherboard uses the Intel 865PE chipset, not the 875. The 865PE offers the same performance since it has PAT unlocked, without the price premium of the 875 chipset. Features: good for overclocking, firewire, SATA RAID (Intel ICH5 RAID controller). Only the firewire port is useful for most people. You can get a cheaper motherboard like the MSI Neo2, but for a few extra bucks firewire is already on the motherboard and doesn’t take up a PCI slot.
Un-features: Northbridge fan (good for extreme overclocking, but creates noise)
Other options: MSI 965PE Neo2 ($83 @ newegg) – it has a nice bundle (rounded IDE cables, USB bracket), no IEEE/firewire, no fan

***RAM: 2X512MB of PC3200 RAM - Crucial/Kingston $156***
Just get normal, name brand RAM. 2 sticks of the same model for dual channel. Low latency RAM and overclocking RAM are a waste of money, even if you want to overclock.
Other options: 2X256MB (hey it'll work with Vegas)

***Hard drives: 160GB 8MB cache (Hitachi PATA 160GB is $113)***
The 8MB cache boosts performance ~30% for your operating system + applications (according to storagereview.com). Bigger drives are better (more future-proof/better for upgrading, faster, more capacity). You can always use the extra capacity.

Hitachi, Western Digital, and Seagate are all good. Hitachi is on top of storagereview.com's leaderboard right now (best drive for OS + applications use in their opinion). WD is second fastest, then Seagate. Seagate is the quietest, followed by Hitachi and then WD. Maxtor is noisy and generally not as reliable, and Samsung no one uses. There are lots of hot deals on Western Digital drives (check hot deals sites).

Some people like having 2 drives since you avoid:
A- fragmentation on your video drive
B- 2 programs trying to access the hard drive at once can choke one drive and cause dropped frames. You can avoid this by closing unnecessary programs.

SATA or PATA: PATA is usually cheaper, although SATA has nicer cabling. Performance is virtually identical. I'd lean towards PATA for now.

Other choices: 80GB system drive 8MB cache + 1 big second drive for video storage

***Sound Card?***
No idea. It really depends on your needs. M-Audio Audiophile 2496? ($149)
I assume on-board sound will be ok if you’re just doing basic mixing. (Is it ok?)

***Video card: Albatron GeForce4 MX440 64MB dual head- $47***
This card supports dual monitors. It has no fan, so that means no noise.
Some programs like Boris Red and After Effects can use the video card for real-time acceleration, but can’t use the card to render. You might want to look into a higher-end gaming card (i.e. ATI 9700pro) or workstation card (ATI Fire GL, Nvidia Quadros) in that case.
Other Options: ATI Radeon 7000s for $35/$40 will do either 2XVGA or VGA+DVI; Matrox P650 for dual DVI (it also supports a third VGA or video output too I think)

***DVD-ROM - Pioneer 16X DVD-ROM $35***
"It doesn't cost much more than a CD-ROM, and you need a second drive for CD to CD copying. 40X CD performance isn't a slouch either. You can get one in a slot load (DVD-120S) or a tray load (DVD-120) version, take your pick." http://arstechnica.com/guide/system/hotrod.html
Other options: CD-RW (for archiving to CD-Rs) – there are sometimes hot deals on those (check hot deals sites)

***DVD Burner - Pioneer 106 $102***
For burning DVDs.
Other choices: Lite-on (cheaper), Sony's DVD burner, Plextor 8X burner (the best), Pioneer 8X version (107/A07)

***Keyboard + mouse - Microsoft mouse + keyboard combo $38***
Get whatever floats your boat. Some people like Logitech mice.

***Floppy - $7***
Mitsumi, Sony, Teac are all good. You may not need a floppy, but some drivers only come on floppies, and you might need a floppy to carry around work. USB flash drives are cool but not as widespread as floppies.
Other options: no floppy, USB flash drive

***Operating System - WinXP Home $92***
I don't think XP offers much over home. There are more things you can tweak and you can log onto corporate networks. Both OSes support hyperthreading, but Home doesn't support SMP (dual processors).
Win2000 is good if you already have it.

***Speakers - ???***
Avoid headphones for mixing. As far as speakers go, I don't know which are good.

Other people recommend Tannoy Reveal Passives ($300 at B&H) or Yorkville YSM1 Passives. Then you’d need an amp.

***Mixer?***
Behringer UB series is the cheapest. You may not need a mixer. It’s helpful for dealing with multiple inputs and outputs, and for voice-overs.

***Deck?***
Sony DSR-11 gets the most recommendations, then the Panasonic decks.
If you don't shoot a lot, then a cheapo camcorder will work. Probably eBay is the best place to get one?

***Contour Shuttle Pro?***

***Monitors X 2: Viewsonic P75f+ PerfectFlat CRTs - $169 X 2***
This is the most beautiful CRT I have seen. Cheap CRTs are annoying afterwards.

CRTs are better bang for the buck than LCDs, even after you consider other costs: furniture, electricitiy, air conditioning, possible eye strain, dual DVI video card, and inflated screen sizes (15" CRT = 14" LCD or something)

I chose dual monitors because they’ll give you a lot more screen real estate than one large monitor.

Other options: NEC Diamondtron 17" CRT 791SB $198
Samsung might also be good?

***Firewire card – (on-board)***
The Abit IS7 has firewire on-board, and so do some sound cards like the Sound Blaster Audigy’s. Firewire cards are all pretty much the same. On older operating systems (i.e. not XP), some chipsets may have some configuration issues. Cheapest firewire card at newegg is $23.50 (including shipping). Pricewatch.com lowest price is about $8.

***6pin-4pin firewire cable- Belkin $12***
You can get generic ones for $7. Crappier cables might mess up your cameras??? For hooking up firewire drives (6pin-6pin), definitely get quality firewire cable. I don't know which ones are better quality though. I figure the most expensive cable has a higher chance of being better quality.

***NTSC Monitor?***

***UPS?***
Un-interruptible power supply. Any recommendations?

***Price: $1319 excluding tax and shipping if I added right (newegg has shipping charges on some items, but I didn't calculate that)***
Many items were not included in the price, including sound card + amp + speakers (which also implies acoustic treatment of the room), NTSC monitor, mixer (which may imply voice-over equipment like a VO booth and a mic), Contour Shuttle Pro, Deck, DVD Media, software

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***Alternative approaches:***
You can get even more bang for your buck by overclocking.
Replace recommendations with:

***Pentium 2.4"C" instead of 2.8C***
All the Canterwoods overclock about the same, but have different multipliers. With the 2.4C you want to run at a 3:2 divider, which is faster than the 5:4 divider. Overclocking will put RAM slower than 200mhz which is ok. RAM that can run faster than 200mhz costs a lot more and doesn't add much performance (a few %).

The Canterwoods should top out at least 3.4ghz-3.6ghz depending on what reports you believe. Overclockers.com has a CPU database with overclocking results.

***Thermalright heat sink- SP-94 $48 without fan at newegg***
Fan: Lots of choices. You can go with a quiet 92mm fan like a Vantec Stealth or a Panaflo (Panaflos are more expensive and need to be change to get the right connector)
The Zalman copper cooler is also good, possibly more bang for your buck

Another option is to just overclock mildly. Use the retail Pentium heatsink of the Zalman copper CPU cooler and change your FSB to 250 and the memory divider to 5:4. This turns your 2.4C into a 3.0C (RAM runs at normal DDR400 speeds). The 25% overclock is mild and you shouldn't have to worry much at all about overclocking issues.

***The Dell barbones route:***
This I think is actually cheaper than a complete do-it-yourself route. The parts + software are cheaper than buying the parts seperately. Check hot deals sites like xpbargains.com and wait for a hot deal on a Dimension 8300 or 4600. You may end up with a non-flat Dell monitor, but you might be able to eBay it off or just use it.

***Refurbished Dells:***
are these a good deal?

Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 2/27/2004, 12:26 AM
I don't like newegg. I found that about 80% of the time, their OEM price is the retail price avaible localy. :( Anyway.. I though i'd add my $0.02 to the list (and possible cut some $$$)

If you wanted the best bang for you buck, why would you want a pentium? They DO render faster then the AMD 64's & XP's, but the price is more. For a little less ($30) you could get an AMD XP 3000, which performs just around the P4-3.0. The AMD might render a little slower then the P4 (at compariable chips: XP 3000 vx P4 3.0), but how many people run only Vegas on their systems? Plus, no reason to have 1gb of ram. It would probley never get fully used (especially by Vegas, and even doing photoshop work for Vegas, with Vegas running, I've never had memory problems, not now with 512 or when I had 256).

For MB I'd recomend the Asus A7V8X-X. It supports all AMD Athlon/Duron chips, has 6 channel out (that can be usedwith Vegas) onboard, very stable, and runs about $70-80. Can be overclocked if you wnat (eigther by bus speed or multplier in the bios)

For a deck (since you didn't make any hard recomendations) I'd recomend a Panasonic DVCPro (AJ-D230H) with optional firewire port (adds 3 iee1394 ports). Can also read DV/MiniDV tapes (MiniDV with adapter). Cost: ~$4,500 (at bhphotovideo.com). Then a BetacamSP for "old" stuff. :)

I wouldn't recomend a floppy unless
1) you don't have you computer network up to another
or
2) you have a need to use the disks.
I never installed a flopppy on my current system several months ago when I built it. I don't miss it. I got a 64mb USB Flash drive instead. :)

I'd say skip the amp and go with the mixer. You can hook some good speakers up to that, and both places i've work don't use amps, just mixers (one place does a weekly radio show). After all, we're skipping on some parts to boost others, right? :)

I don't recomend the DVD-Rom. I recomend getting a free or $10 CD-RW drive when OfficeMax has a sale. Then you won't use your nice DVD Burner to burn backup CD's every month! :) Plus, we don't need it to watch DVD's. We use the nice monitor for Vegas preview & a DVD player (need something to test those burned discs on).

I personly skimp on the case a little too. :) I got a P4 case for my AMD XP system on sale for $15 after rebate @ computergeeks.com. It's a very nice case. I just threw a fan under the power supply blowing out andmy system doesn't get above 42c when rendering (i have an XP 1800) Everything fit in well, no "adjusting" the case for use, and it has tons of HD slots. :) hehehe

I'd also recomend an external HD, at least 80gb. Make a batch file/use a utility to back up your important work to it at least twice a week. A fast system is nice, but a power surge can still kill it. :) Also, a UPS and a good (3000j at least) surge protector.

Since we're consider bang per $, i'd make those changes.
RichMacDonald wrote on 2/27/2004, 8:48 AM
>***Motherboard: Abit IS7 $94***
>This otherboard uses the Intel 865PE chipset, not the 875. The 865PE offers the same performance since it has PAT unlocked, without the price premium of the 875 chipset. Features: good for overclocking, firewire, ICH5 RAID?, 2SATA 2PATA channels, PATA-->SATA adapter

I suggest the MSI 865PE Neo2. Current pricewatch price is $81.

>***Firewire card - $25 or less***
>They're all pretty much the same. On older operating systems some chipsets may have some configuration issues.

Not necessary. The motherboard should provide enough connections. Some of the soundcards also provide a firewire connection on their front panel. Or find a case with a front-side temperature/fan-speed control panel; they'll have some additional connections as well. FWIW, I use a Thermaltake Skull case, which cost me $105 w/out power supply. Not exactly bang-for-the-buck, but it sure looks cool. Very good engineering, which I appreciated :-)

>The Pentium should top out at least 3.4ghz-3.6ghz depending on what reports you believe.

I'd be suprised if your PC3200 RAM will make that. But I'm probably wrong. I went with the PC4200, which was definitely overkill and expensive.
riredale wrote on 2/27/2004, 10:22 AM
Being a contrarian at heart, I'd have to say that, by definition, the best "bang for the buck" would be the very cheapest system that could run Vegas without causing the user to tear his/her hair out.

Don't know prices, but I suspect a supercheap box (E-machine, $399) would be the answer to this question if you were buying new, and anything with a processor faster than 1GHz and 256MB of ram if you were buying used (~$100).

One of the signature characteristics of Vegas is that it will run on ANYTHING. All you gain by spending more is faster renders. It is one of the most stable complex programs I have ever seen.

Regarding method of purchase: I'd go with mail-order only as a last resort, because I have found the need many times to return an item either because it didn't work or because it just wasn't the right "fit." There has to be some store with decent prices within driving distance for most of the items. For a lot of the miscellaneous stuff, though, mail-order is a great way to save money. I've even had great success on eBay, which some would say is full of risk.
RichMacDonald wrote on 2/27/2004, 10:40 AM
>Regarding method of purchase: I'd go with mail-order only as a last resort, because I have found the need many times to return an item either because it didn't work or because it just wasn't the right "fit."

Since we're talking about maximum bang for minimum buck, go buy the part at your local mega-useless store, test it out, buy it mail-order, then return the original part when the mail arrives. But no one would actually *do* that, would they :-?
GlennChan wrote on 2/27/2004, 11:40 AM
>>>If you wanted the best bang for you buck, why would you want a pentium? They DO render faster then the AMD 64's & XP's, but the price is more.<<<
Because they render faster. I think the extra performance is worth the extra price. With the Main Concept MPEG2 encoder (the one Vegas+DVD uses?), the AMD XP3000+ is about 20% slower than the Pentium 2.8C.

For games, Pentiums seem to be faster. AMD CPUs by marketing speeds ("3200+") fall off on the high range. For games, Pentiums pull ahead at the high clock speeds (except versus AMD64 processors).

>>>Plus, no reason to have 1gb of ram. It would probley never get fully used (especially by Vegas, and even doing photoshop work for Vegas, with Vegas running, I've never had memory problems, not now with 512 or when I had 256). <<<
I think you could get away with 512MB. However, I really wouldn't go lower than that.

>>>I suggest the MSI 865PE Neo2. Current pricewatch price is $81.<<<
Plus a firewire card, that would be around $88. For a few extra dollars (the abit board is $93 shipped) you might as well get it from newegg, which has good service and you receive everything in one package without delays. The fan you may not like though (the MSI board has a heatsink).

>>>(firewire) The motherboard should provide enough connections.<<<
You're right, I made a mistake there.

>>>FWIW, I use a Thermaltake Skull case, which cost me $105 w/out power supply. Not exactly bang-for-the-buck, but it sure looks cool.<<<
Sorry I'm going to have to call the taste police on you :) Thermaltake cases are cheesy. http://www.thermaltake.com/xaserCase/menu.htm

>>>I'd be suprised if your PC3200 RAM will make that [3.4-3.6ghz]. But I'm probably wrong. I went with the PC4200, which was definitely overkill and expensive. <<<
You can set the RAM is run at a memory divider or a ratio of what your front side bus speed is. Normal FSB is 200. 3.6ghz would require a FSB of 300, so when running a memory divider of 3:2 your RAM would be at 200mhz (normal speed). A FSB speed that high might cause problems though, since the northbridge might hot.

>>>All you gain by spending more is faster renders.<<<
Which is worth it if you edit a lot. Maybe a lower end AMD system might be better bang for your buck for people who don't edit a lot or who don't need much speed.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 2/27/2004, 11:41 AM
Getting the cheapest wouldn't give you bang for buck. You'd want the system to last. I gues the BES Tbang for buck would be a computer that you don't get rid of until it's completely useless (ie when you can't do "modern" video editing!)

TheHappyFriar wrote on 2/27/2004, 12:02 PM
Have you read the reviews on AMD XP/64 vs P4 chips?
http://www.motherboards.org/articlesd/hardware-reviews/1256_1.html
http://www.motherboards.org/articlesd/hardware-reviews/1285_1.html

The intels aren't that much faster then the amd's. I would rather take a few more minutes to render a file and have a nice mixer. I could use the mixer more, and when you're rendering when you're not there, 5 minutes doesn't matter.
Yoyodyne wrote on 2/27/2004, 12:09 PM
Lots of great input - my only comment is to never, ever skimp on the power supply. Antec truepower has always worked great for me, just my .02.

Yoyodyne
GlennChan wrote on 2/27/2004, 2:22 PM
Hmm maybe an AMD2500+ Barton would be more bang for your buck? A AMD2500+ processor costs $81 at newegg.com, versus $187 for a Pentium. AMD motherboards with nForce2 chipset are slightly cheaper, have excellent on-board sound, and have slightly cheaper RAM. It's $100-something extra for a ~20-25% performance bump (for video tasks). I don't know exactly what the performance difference between the two are at Vegas rendering so 20-25% is a guestimate. 20-25% is about the difference in MPEG2 encoding with the Main Concept encoder.

Most people don't stick around for renders, but you do lose some time when video is rendering and more performance will give you better real-time previews (so you have to render less). I feel the small performance bump for ~$100 is worth it. Another way of thinking about it is quadrupuling the cost + performance increase: would you pay ~$500 to double performance?
RichMacDonald wrote on 2/27/2004, 3:15 PM
>>>>FWIW, I use a Thermaltake Skull case, which cost me $105 w/out power supply. Not exactly bang-for-the-buck, but it sure looks cool.<<<

>Sorry I'm going to have to call the taste police on you :) Thermaltake cases are cheesy. >http://www.thermaltake.com/xaserCase/menu.htm

Oh yeah? Well I'll have you know that that flashing skull is scaring my 11 month old and 4 yr old and thus keeping them from touching it or using it for walking support. And the front-side lock. VERY WELL WORTH IT!

In all honestly, the thing is very well built, the fans are great, and the screwless install was fun to work with. My only problem is that I installed the P4 onto the motherboard before I affixed the thermocouple. So I placed the thermocouple between the heat sink and the fan. Bad move: it created a separation and was overheating in 3 min. So rather than risk yanking the P4 and breaking it, I just installed the thermocouple on the side of the sink. Now I have to add 20 degF to whatever the readout says. I am having a noise problem, but its all due to the CPU fan and power supply fan. I'll need to fix that down the road.
cosmo wrote on 2/27/2004, 4:13 PM
bang for buck and longevity is what I'm hearing. The only price(system) I think I saw you guys quoting was around $1300(+shipping) I think to order everything and build it.

Last year I was faced with this decision and planned on taking the route of this thread - bang for the buck you know. I researched a lot, and watched Dell.com for about three weeks and pricewatch.com and ended buying from Dell.

I got a Dimension P4 2.4, 512MB RAM, 60GB 7200 drive, ati radeon 7200(I think it's 7200..??)with DVI and s-video, integrated sound, 15" plat panel display and windows XP pro. After tax and free shipping, $1108.xx and I upgraded the integrated sound with an $99 M-audio delta 410.

That makes $1207, with two year next day on-site free service. Still using it today, rock solid. If you wanna see/hear what's it is turning out just ask!