Bi-dir A/D converters again again

T*Bob Tubb wrote on 3/26/2005, 10:25 AM
There's no comprehensive list or reviews (other than the canopus) on the forum, so I thought I'd try to create one. This post is not for the pros out there, but for those of us under $400 for a good D/A converter. The D/A converters listed on sony's compatibility list seem very hard to find and/or expensive. Also, people here complained about the Dazzle so much I didn't bother. So here's the list of converters I think are reasonable priced and will do the trick. I'm going to buy one of them by next week, so I wanted to open discussion again about them:

Canopus ADVC-110
ADS Pyro API-555
Data Video DAC-100
TVone DV-1394-A50

-The TVone and DAC have 4:1:1 capture; the others are unlisted.
-TVone and ADS both have component video in (although I don't think they have component out).
-People have talked about heat issues with the Canopus and ADS, but I think they've been resolved.
-The DAC and the Canopus have color bars, but I'm not sure about the others.
-The Canopus seems to have no standby mode, whereas the ADS does, no info on the others.
-I think they all have NTSC/PAL compatibility.
-People seem to say ADS has great customer service.
-Canopus can be powered by the 6-pin firewire alone, the others can't. (but the canopus doesn't come with a power adapter!)

Could anybody help fill in the missing info, or just talk about their experiences with the non-canopus models?

go!

Comments

Coursedesign wrote on 3/26/2005, 11:13 AM
Vegas currently only supports 4:1:1 via firewire, although I'm expecting some kind of 4:2:2 I/O in Vegas 6.

My Canopus ADVC100 has functioned flawlessly for several years, never a problem. I don't think it sucks much more power than the loss in the wall wart transformer.


trock wrote on 3/26/2005, 11:26 AM
My ADS works very well for both capture and external monitor image-wise but occasionally during capture at around the 40 minute mark the image goes into inverse/negative.
B.Verlik wrote on 3/26/2005, 1:05 PM
My datavideo DAC-100 looks better than you might think. But if you look very closely, you'll see a very faint outline around bright objects. Not noticeable unless you're a video editor. In other words, Joe Blow will never notice until somebody points it out.
The one thing you're not considering here, is getting a used Sony Digital 8 with "pass-through" that will allow you to transfer video with some better than average A/D technology and also let you make more homevideos or an extra camera. They go for about $300. used on Ebay. Be sure the model supports "pass-through" (usually only the more expensive models have this feature.)
farss wrote on 3/26/2005, 2:22 PM
ADVC-300 working flawlessly for years. Bought to replace ADS box that didn't work from day one. It's interesting to see that despite several goes they've managed to get their box to work better but not 100% reliably.
If you want a seriously good A<->D converter then the SD Connect from Convergent is about the best there is. Please be aware though of one limitation, it doesn't have a TBC unlike the ADVC-300 and D8 camera so for dodgy VHS or Hi8 you might get better results using something cheaper.
They will however shortly be letting you capture 10 bit uncompressed over firewire.
If you don't have a lot of money to spend then the D8 camera is an excellent way to go.
Bob.
T*Bob Tubb wrote on 3/26/2005, 6:21 PM
Well, the SD-connect looks like it costs upwards of $1300, and I've heard that using a Digital camera can really burn out more quickly, because it's not made to be a pass-through device. Can anyone attest to one of these not burning out after extensive use?

Also sounds like the DAC-100 and the ADS have minor disadvantages, for which paying the extra for the Canopus would be worth it. Anyone use the TVone?
B.Verlik wrote on 3/26/2005, 6:47 PM
The Canopus' normally recommended are the ADVC 100 or the ADVC 300. The 100 is much cheaper and the 300 has the TBC and filters to make old VHS and analog stuff look good. The D8 you're worried about, also has TBC and Digital Noise Reduction and in some ways may work on a par with the ADVC 300. If you connect your cables without too much haste, I don't see any problems with longevity. Especially, if you don't use the camera as a camera, and just leave the cables hooked up. (of course, set up in a way that you won't trip over them.)
trock wrote on 3/27/2005, 8:30 AM
A keyfactor is what you plan to use it for. If capturing from VHS for instance, you need to be aware that the TBC in the ADVC 300 is a line TBC (like in the excellent JVC VCR's) and not a full frame TBC. Frame TBC's are more effective when working with poor VHS tapes.
farss wrote on 3/27/2005, 2:08 PM
I can attest to that!
For real nasty VHS problems I drag out the D8, one plus for me though with the ADVC-300, I can tweak the procamp during capture and it'll handle PAL and NTSC.
Bob.
T*Bob Tubb wrote on 4/4/2005, 2:24 PM
Jim was so kind as to add info on the TVone here:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=373489

thanks to all for putting in their $0.02. I personally ended up getting a Sony Digital 8 camcorder: DCR-TRV350, only after electrified.com sent me the wrong item (DCR-TRV250) and had to overnight me the correct one. Haven't tried it out much, yet, but the firewire output is different than I expected it would be! The 'recompressed' video takes quite a while to render on my machine I guess, so those segments are choppy. Word.
farss wrote on 4/4/2005, 2:34 PM
The video shouldn't be 'recompressed' unless you are adding FXs. If you set your internal preview to Preview Auto you should be able to feed video at full frame rate to your external monitor via the D8. You are using firewire?
Bob.
epirb wrote on 4/4/2005, 3:33 PM
Bob are you using the 300 for component out to you HD monitor?
Seems like the 300 is the only sub $1000 firewire to component out device for true HD/HDV preview yes?
B.Verlik wrote on 4/4/2005, 3:59 PM
One of the reasons I was trying to steer you towards a used Dig 8, is because the existing new ones, look like toys compared to the 3 or 4 year old models, plus most consumers hardly use their cameras and they usually work pretty good. The older ones use a 1/4 " CCD and takes much better video, especially in low light. Firewire transfer usually was a small 4 pin jack from the camera to the 6 pin input of your computer and it transfers in real time. Once in your PC, you're ready to edit.
farss wrote on 4/4/2005, 4:04 PM
I cannot use the 300 for component as I still cannot source the cable, that was a clever move on the part of Canopus, use a connector that not even they can source a cable or plug for.
That aside, the ADVC-300 does NOT handle anything other than SD.
Stay tuned though, I think V6 will offer a solution to the HD monitoring problem.
Bob.
epirb wrote on 4/4/2005, 6:36 PM
yeah I was kinda wondering when I saw the back of one and saw the specific connector, and no mention of a dongle or adapter in the included pieces.
Wouldnt that be the S*%# if you could do it with V6 alone?
Man I cant wait for NAB and SCVUG's stream.
musman wrote on 4/5/2005, 12:05 AM
Don't think it's been mentioned, but one advantage that Canopus has that I don't think other converters or cameras with passthrough have is the ability to deal properly with the 7.5 IRE or pedistal that USa NTSc video requires. It's a mess to figure out, but JVC used to have a site devoted to explaining it all.
So, if you're very concerned about your black levels then you might want to look into a Canopus.
B.Verlik wrote on 4/5/2005, 2:03 AM
I'm beginning to agree. I use the Pass-thru on a Sony Dig 8 and it looks perfect as I'm capturing it, but when I put it on the time line, I end up turning up the contrast 20% or close to that. (which ends up having a little more contrast than the original, but it looks a little better to me that way.)
PS: The datavideo DAC-100 does deal with the 7.5 IRE and that's why I noticed the difference when I just got this used Dig 8. I just wish there was a setting in Vegas to fix it.
logiquem wrote on 4/5/2005, 7:47 AM
Got an ADS sometimes ago and returned it. Bad image quality, video synch problems, poor response as a D/A NLE output, etc. Will opt for a Canopus ADC300 for the next archival project. TBC and procamp is invaluable when tranfering large amount of videos.
rs170a wrote on 4/5/2005, 7:57 AM
...JVC used to have a site devoted to explaining it all.

The black level demo is still on JVC's site.

Mike
B.Verlik wrote on 4/5/2005, 12:43 PM
That was some fantastic information and it looks exactly like the problem I've been having. Only problem is, I just happen to use a fairly expensive, pro-sumer model JVC Super VHS VCR (VHS playback unit) and there is no switch between zero and 7.5 IRE and I can't find a switch on my Sony TRV-730 (A/D conversion) for the same function and I still haven't found anything in Vegas to switch it either. So.....what's the fix in this case? Play it by eye? Please answer in layman terms. I just dug through all the settings in Vegas and didn't find anything at all that had anything to do with zero or 7.5 setup.
I take that back, I found a setting in my 'Scopes' for the 7.5 setup. But it doesn't seem to affect the picture at all, only the scopes. So now I'm really stumped.
Thanks for that link, Mike (rs170a)
musman wrote on 4/5/2005, 11:35 PM
You're right. This is a bit difficult to deal with. Want worse news, different camcorders add different amounts of setup to their analog output. For example, my pd 150 adds 3.7 IRE. Not to start a war here, but it's this kind of halfway fix (if it were to be used with Japanese NTSC then it shouldn't add anything) that really pisses me off about Sony. But I guess not many people are as technically obsessed as I am.
It was my conclusion then that the best way to go about getting proper black levels was to buy a transcoder that added pedistal for you. I did not want to spend that money, so I did my black and white balancing on my external TV from the Vegas timeline through the pd150. That's the best we can do. Normal TV viewing will be off, but for Vegas things should be okay.
What I'm looking forward to the day when we can do a preview through DVI to a 2nd 23" monitor. That will be cool.
farss wrote on 4/6/2005, 12:33 AM
just checked my ADVC-300 and it does have a switch for 7.5 IRE setup.
As I'm not in NSTC land take this with a grain of salt please:

Using the scopes (histogram) you can easily check if your captured footage has setup. If the blacks don't start at 0 I;d suspect somethings amiss. It may not be setup but if whole tape is like that it's a fair bet. You should be easily able to correct this using a number of FXs, brightness and contrast should do it simply, you just need to add adjust the brightness so the blacks hit 0 on the scopes and then adjust contrast to bring the whites back to where they were. You may get some interaction between the controls so adjust each one slowly. The aim is to just stretch the histgrams luminance channel so your blacks are at 0 and ideally your whites are at 255. If your tape has bars at the start then you can do this even easier and check a few other parametes as well.

Hope this helps, like I said I;m no whizz at this stuff, hopefully someone with a bit more knowledge will step up to the plate.
Bob.
B.Verlik wrote on 4/6/2005, 12:45 PM
Well I started using the scopes, mostly because you asked me too. I don't really understand what I'm doing with them. The thing that throws me, is that there's an Icon in the scopes, that will give you an option for 7.5 IRE. But if you click it, it switches where everything starts in the scopes, but I see no difference in the picture. In other words, it may show the signal going down to 0 IRE before engaging the switch, but when you click to 7.5 IRE, then the view shifts so the signal now only goes down to 7.5 IRE, but looks no different on the timeline. It's like the switch is only for the scopes and has nothing to do with the picture. I do seem to be suffering from that exact 'washed-out' look that JVC was talking about at their site. And I'm sure 'Contrast' is not really the right way to fix it, but what is? So many little time wasting problems.
B.Verlik wrote on 4/6/2005, 9:10 PM
Still ain't no cure for the IRE blues.
farss wrote on 4/6/2005, 10:14 PM
Scopes are a measuring instrumen, just they same as the trip meter in your car, you can reset that too, does make your car any 'younger'

The point of using them is so you can see in a quantitative way what is happening.
So with the 7.5 IRE switch off does the luminance channel go down to zero (select histogram, luminance is the top one, in white)


I've just tried this here as best I can. I'm finding that using the Brightness and Contrast FX with Contrast at 0.15 looks like it should correct your problem.

Bob.