??Blu-ray and HD DVD question??

apsolonproductions wrote on 4/14/2006, 11:47 PM
Something ran across my mind the other day after reading recent articles on releases for players for both of these formats. I'm a gadget guy and I love technology and all the new stuff but I got to thinking what if I were not. What would make me buy one of these HD "players". The problem I first see with the way the sony group and the HD-DVD group are going to release the formats. They are releasing "players" first only. Why would I being a normal consumer (even if I own an HDTV, which I do but anyway..lol) want to buy a HD player when I can get a progressive scan up converted HDMI DVD players (some with SD recorders) for less than 300 dollars (compared to $400 for HD-DVD and over a grand for Blu-ray players)? The progressive scan looks great on most HDTV's and people like that, only technology junkies like ourselves will really notice major differences and we will be the only ones to buy the HD players. If Blu-ray and HD-DVD really wanted to SELL their product they would offer recording first off and not just players. Also if HD-DVD starts selling players at 400 and Blu-ray begins at 1000 or more what do you think people are going to buy if they buy them at all. I remember the salesman saying to my Dad that Betamax gets a better picture but VHS was a little cheaper, which one do you think he bought. I think the Sony group may have to take a lose in order to keep up if HD-DVD players are that much cheaper. Don't get me wrong I really support Blu-ray more than HD-DVD for numerous reasons . I just think if these two groups want to make sales they really need to release recorder/players first and drive the selling point that you can watch real HD and record it from television too. I would love to record my favor show "Lost" in HD and watch it later. When DVD players were released there were major selling points and huge differences between VHS tapes and DVD's. Thats the reason why DVd took off so quickly, but what real differences are there between DVD and the two new HD disc formats, besides HD? new shiny boxes? Anyhow what do you guys think about all this? I'm just thinking all this off the top of my head and if you see it differently from a consumers view please post :-)

Comments

apit34356 wrote on 4/15/2006, 12:37 AM
DVDs, actually DVDs success story came by the way of Circuit City massive investment in promoting it. Long story, but it hurt Circuit City balance sheet, but BestBuy and many other retailers benefited from CC adventure, plus today everyone enjoys great prices and products.

"BluRay" and Betamax is not a good comparison. When Betamax was intro, Sony was not into "content creation", and Sony has learned that lesson well from Hollywood. Sony Japen, tho some people believe Sony doesn't have a master plan that interconnect their divisions, has a master marketing plan that does interconnect some ( not all products) products across division lines. BluRay is one such product. Sony has learned from previous battles that being the best does not win the marketing battle, but if you are the best and you and allies control "content" and drive market interest with secondary products,(tv,....etc).... you really have to want to fail.

Which one to buy? If your a gadget guy, you must have both. If you love "move-on" site then buy HD-DVD first and when it becomes stylist and political OK, then buy Bluray.
DGates wrote on 4/15/2006, 12:54 AM
Actually, Circuit City was one of the developers of the Divx format, at least from a marketing standpoint. You'd buy Divx discs, and they were designed to play once or twice, and then the disc was no longer usable. It was a flop.

It's dumb ideas like that that make me think Circuit City won't be around much longer.
apit34356 wrote on 4/15/2006, 1:40 AM
Yes. the Divx was a write-off, but CC thought the comparsion of dvd movies vs Divx would drive Divx. It help the dvd market more. At that time CC was not big enought to create a mass market demand for new product just by themselves.
JJKizak wrote on 4/15/2006, 5:35 AM
After purchasing a JVC SR-DVD 100U player that plays m2t, ts, tp , HD-WMV, and 2200 x 2200 jpg files on regular dvd-r & dual layer +r discs and testing with several files from the Z1 and Microsoft HD-WMV sample files I am happy as a pig in mud. I can't tell the difference in quality on the m2t files from what is broadcast OTA or playing the Z1 directly into the Sony TV. The jpegs also were outstanding and I didn't even have to render them to m2t. I also sucked them onto the network connection to the player with the software provided. Of course going through the network the computer must be on and the Avelink software must be activated and the files inserted. The only drawback is the playing time of 30 minutes for single layer and 1 hr for dual layer.
I used Nero express data files to burn the DVD-R 16x and DVD+R 2.4x dual layer discs. The software on the JVC player is a bit slow and cumbersome and the only way I could screw it up is by ejecting the tray during playing. Turning the player off/on resets everything back to normal. One of the initial problems (if you call it a problem) is the 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i , Pal (duplicates) selection which lights a teeny weeny led on the unit with the selected item which you have to eyball on your hands and knees to see. If you are not in the right mode the tv screen is blank. Another potential upsetter is when viewing jpegs the motor starts up every time it automatically changes to the next picture and it kind of whines like a science fiction movie. You can also set the viewing time for each picture. I used the 1080i and 720p modes. My network connection is 36 ft. The cost of the unit was $370.00 from B & H. If they had tripple layer standard discs Bluray and HD-DVD would be only for wealthy people with gadgets.

JJK
farss wrote on 4/15/2006, 5:57 AM
Australian Personal Computer has a hands on review of the Toshiba BluRay burner. IDE interface, plug n play, Nero supports it already. 35Gb of data no sweat. Around AUD 800.

For me the $64K question is how can we author something that'll play in a STB?

Maybe that isn't a question, I could author it just about anyway I like and play it with WMP or VLC etc.

So maybe the BD burner in a HTPC will be a hit and the STB variants will be a flop, after all anyone geeky enough to buy a 1080 display is probably already using a HTPC.

Then again if I've got a HTPC why not just play the movies off a HDD, guess it's a question of $/GB.

Bob.
riredale wrote on 4/15/2006, 10:20 AM
JJKizak:

Oh wow. This is amazing news to me. I've been saying for some time that all we really need is neither HDDVD or BluRay, but just the DVD spec updated to allow the use of WMV9.

I'm assuming that this player will only play HD files, but not in the context of a DVD structure with menus, right? If so, then that's the missing link--someone (in China or Taiwan) needs to introduce a similar player that combines WMV9 with the DVD structure. Just think--two hours of HD on a regular old DVD-R blank, burnable with any generic DVD burner.

The contrarian streak in me would just LOVE to see the angst and screaming over at HDDVD and BluRay headquarters...
apsolonproductions wrote on 4/15/2006, 11:04 AM
Yeah,
I guess its not really fair comparing Blu-ray to Betamax or to minidisc, etc. I was just tring to convey a point, well several really. Why would a consumer want a HD "player" when a DVD player/ recorder with HDMI gives good quality on an HDTV (to us its a bit poor..lol) and is much cheaper. Your right I will probably buy both a HD-DVD and Blu-ray just to play with them, but I really would want recording capability on a HDTV. I also think that would make a excellent selling point to the amount of money both camps are wanting for the units. The two camps are going to have problems with the names too because I guarentee many people will call blu-ray and HD-DVD just DVD..lol. I like the BD expression but I have caught myself calling it dvd before. Old habits die hard.
JJKizak wrote on 4/15/2006, 2:55 PM
riredale:
It will play a normal DVD-R as any other player. When it plays an m2t file or HD-WMV file the actual file appears in the GUI just like on your hard drive then you click it and you have HDV video. The Indian Russian venture (DMT I think) have their own codecs. The EVD Chinese version has their own codecs and the FVD Taiwan version uses Microsoft HD WMV and audio codecs and with possible tripple layer disc. All of these using the standard DVD disc.

JJK

farss wrote on 4/15/2006, 3:20 PM
And these Asian devices will probably sell for about USD 50, i.e. cheap enough for us to give to clients. And in their local markets there will be a compelling reason why they'll sell. DVD never took off, the transition will be from VCD to a HD player and even on a small screen that's a big enough step up in quality to generate enough of a wow factor to make the boxes a compelling purchase.

Bob
apit34356 wrote on 4/15/2006, 3:25 PM
JJKizak, I believe the new Walmart superstores are using the 100U do feed their new Hidef screens in the store.
genie wrote on 4/15/2006, 5:37 PM

I made a 59 minute wmv-9 1280-720p philosophy video that fits on a cd - about 680mgb. Now it is only streaming png fractal images with voice overs and texts but it looks great and I can't believe that you couldn't make a hight quality wmv-9 video that you couldn't fit on a standard dvd disc. I'm with riredale - I'm waiting for that angst too at Blue-ray-HD headquarters - here's a toast to the Chinese-Russian-Indian-Taiwanese player that makes the whole conversation obsolete.

genie
johnmeyer wrote on 4/15/2006, 6:05 PM
The WMV9 player is exactly what I think will be the way to go, for a long time to come, same way that MP3 became a standard -- no standards committees or big companies, just something that did what CONSUMERs wanted.

Which brings me to the Circuit City divX disaster. The lesson there is extremely pertinent to both the HDDVD and Blu-Ray companies, and it is this:

If you bring a technology to market whose main selling features are all benefits for the SELLER and not the CONSUMER, you will fail.

The Circuit City DivX discs were all about protecting the movie studios, and did nothing good for the consumer (except some lame excuse about not having to return the disk), and of course were ecologically stupid (whoopee, more landfill). I see a lot of the same thinking behind the new HD disc standards, where a lot of the technology is there primarily for the benefit of the studios, and not the consumers.
Steve Mann wrote on 4/17/2006, 12:55 AM
"If you bring a technology to market whose main selling features are all benefits for the SELLER and not the CONSUMER, you will fail."

That is a very good quote - I'll think I'll steal it..... (VBG)

This one sentence clearly defines why I predict that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be collosal marketing failures. The Content Restriction Management schemes will kill the product. Especially when people who bought their HD-Ready sets more than two years ago find that CRM limits the resolution of the HD because the TV or monitor aren't HDCP compliant. The consumer revolt will be televised. (And fun to watch).

Steve Mann
apit34356 wrote on 4/17/2006, 1:56 AM
Actually, Steve has hit on a point that has / is effecting marketing delays now. What about the crowd who bought their HD-Ready sets more than two years ago with marketing promises of being Hd-Ready. Well, first read the fine print and liab. of the retailers. The two year old crowd is not large, but did help push HD tvs. Do you upgrade them or first show them how "old, very old" their tech tvs by showing them the 1080p's and what "HD" should look like. If that fails, point out "HD-Ready" is a marketing term for a unique set of tech's are now "outdated" and networks, not retailers, failed to performed.

I'm quessing but suspect that all 720 HD-Ready tv buyers will be treated with a sad smile and a head shake( that says "boy were you suckered"), but now let me upgrade you to the "new, bigger and better" and I'll give you a coupon worth $150 and $150 in the new format movies for the trade, but you can keep the "old" tv.
farss wrote on 4/17/2006, 4:16 AM
Actually Sony have ditched that restriction I believe.
And the first HD DVD players are in the hands of American citizens right now and DVD Studio Pro authored HiDef disks play in them.

Bob.
apit34356 wrote on 4/17/2006, 5:39 AM
Yes, Sony and its partners did ditched that restriction just recently. But I, quessing only, suspect that output will be marginal and not alot of effort to support the older "HD-Ready" tvs vs pushing customers to newer 1080p tvs Quessing, but I suspect Sony was more focused on having PSP3 playing movies on cheaper TVs for college and high school students, knowning that the most students can not afford both at once, but want them to buy PSP3 then later HDTV. This combination will increase movie sales in this crowd.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 4/17/2006, 7:09 AM
If you bring a technology to market whose main selling features are all benefits for the SELLER and not the CONSUMER, you will fail.

Well said, John! I couldn't agree more.