Bug: High number of m2t files crashes Vegas 6

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/25/2005, 11:49 AM

One of our German Vegas user came up with the information, that Vegas-6b (and also Vegas-5) crashes, if you import a number of 70 or 100 single m2t files in the timeline. I have been able to confirm that on my maschine, too.

The problem seems to be, that the page file is climbing up to figures of 1.9 GB or higher, as a linear function of the numbers of the single m2t files. There is no difference, if the files are small ones, or huge ones. When you reach the maximum number of files, when the page file comes to its limit, Vegas crashes.

Error message: "none of the files dropped on vegas could be opened"

This high utilization of the windows xp page file usage was measured in the windows task manager/performance. By the way, Vegas-6 seems to crash easier then Vegas 5 (but also Vegas-5 crashes).

Comments

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/26/2005, 12:53 AM

Is there really nobody here, who has worked with 70 or 100 single HDV-clips (=60 to 100 HDV-files on the harddisk) in Vegas-6 now?

SPOT, what about you?

Marco. wrote on 6/26/2005, 12:20 PM

This actually seems to be a serious issue. Hope something is in work to solve it.

Marco

Spot|DSE wrote on 6/26/2005, 12:53 PM

The most CLIPS I've ever worked were a total of 18, as these were all 1-hour tapes, then cut up into hundreds of events. No crashes there. However, this was brought up as an issue in Vegas 5, so it might well be existent in Vegas 6. If I recall correctly, it was actually a Main Concept issue. I'll have to split a number of short segments, render them to m2t, then import to verify this, and that could take some time, even with a batch render.

Marco. wrote on 6/26/2005, 1:20 PM

Thanks for jumping in here. To create a higher number of m2t-files maybe just copying (outside Vegas) and renaming them could help.

If this really is a MainConcept bug (actually this does not happen using dv-files or an intermediate) it might be even worse because then we would be dependend of MainConcept instead of "our" Sony crew to solve it.

Marco

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/26/2005, 1:21 PM

You can do it easier: take the test files as available on the VASST page - and generate file copies on the harddisk. I did that until 132 files - and used that to import the files directly into Vegas.

After 70 clips, the page file climbs up to something about 4 GB - and Vegas crashes. At least at my 3.2 Ghz P4 system, with 1 GB ram. Page file was adjusted to 2x 3000 MB - and located to my raid5 and another hard disk.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/26/2005, 1:22 PM

Marco, renaming is not necessary - since the files will have the names "copy (2, 3,...) of FILENAME" or so. That works fine for that test.

The size of the page file climbs up with cineform intermediates to 4 GB too - but even 132 cineform clips ´- rendered from those copied m2t files - did not crash Vegas.

Marco. wrote on 6/27/2005, 1:12 PM

I just tested it with "regular" MPEG-2 (rendered in Vegas 5 with DVD-PAL template) and Vegas 5.

Same error.

So it seems like any kind of MPEG-2 cannot be handled if the clip amount exceed a certain number.

Was there any comment from Sony in the past if they can help here even if the bug is related to the MainConcept modul?

Marco

Kula Gabe wrote on 6/27/2005, 3:42 PM

I found this to be a problem in V5, I have not tested in 6 yet, but I think the problem is still there. I have been forced to work on small parts of a short "film" rather than the whole project because having too many HDV (cineform) clips cause my pagefile to go well over 2 gig, then crash (I have a gig or ram, P4 2.8). I will test it later w/ 6. I am trying to get an edit done for a festival submision first though.

Gabe

Wolfgang S. wrote on 6/28/2005, 5:31 AM

I did another test with 132 HDV-Cineform files. The paging file went up to 4 GB too, but Vegas-6 was still stable, even with that huge sized paging file (that was splitted up to the SATA raid-5 system and another fast SATA harddisk). So, in terms of performance and stability, it makes sense to edit Cineform intermediates.

However, there are a lot of people who do not wish to work with intermediates - but would like to render out their final project based on m2t files. Gearshift offers such a workflow. But such people are not able to render their final product now, due to that bug. One of our users in the German Vegas forum came up with 1400 (!) m2t files from a long New Sealand trip - and is a good example for somebody who concludes that he cannot contiue to use Vegas. Vegas always crashes with 60 m2t files imported in the timeline.

Yes, maybe his workflow is not very typical. But I think that Sony should fix that bug as fast as possible. It simply makes no sense to write something about "HDV professional edit tool..." in the startup-screen, and then Vegas 6 (and also 5) crashes with the small number of 60 m2t files. Even people who love Vegas would think about to switch to another software, given that actual behaviour of Vegas 6b.
:(

epirb wrote on 7/4/2005, 6:39 PM

Argg...! This happened to me too! Just got done editing a 15 min piece using Gearshift proxies, all went smooth. I got 1 error when shifting gears back to m2t, but had saved the veg just prior. Reopened the Veg converted to m2t, all good.
Went to render and Vegas crashes with all the symptoms stated above. I have 54 m2t events on the timeline, 38 apprx clips , some reused or layered.
Should I submitt a tech support request , or has this been done enough with this issue.(Sony ,I'm asking you.)
Or has anybody found a work around besides sectioning out the timeline to smaller segments, then saving that as a veg , then reopening and rendering etc. etc.
I was trying to render direct to DVDA widescreen mpg, but I dont know how Im gonna splice these together at the cuts I guess.
I even tried to render to a .wmv 720p---No go.!
Please Sony, help us out......

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/5/2005, 4:29 AM

I have submitted a support request some time ago - no answer yet.

That is what makes angry about Sony. I would like to have at least an answer like "yes, we are looking into that" or "sorry, there can be done nothing at the moment".
:(

ForumAdmin wrote on 7/5/2005, 6:03 AM

A significant amount of memory is needed to open each "native" HDV file used in a Vegas project. Depending on the system you are using you may hit the upper limit of available system memory fairly quickly if you use many small HDV clips (as opposed to for example capturing 6 tapes in their entirety, as 6 files).

If you transcode (either selects, or the entire native captured clip) to the Cineform codec, you'll get vastly improved playback performance on just about any machine, you should have NO limit to the # of HDV files you can use in the project, quality is such that you'd be very hard pressed to see a difference between the intermediate and the native source when you render for output.

epirb wrote on 7/5/2005, 6:29 AM

So I guess my chioce is to render out "sections" of the timeline.

(-deleting all other portions of the timeline- )

I did that direct to the DVDA widescreen format mpg, but its impossible to get those separate mpgs to play as one smooth clip on a DVD.

How will the quality hold up if I render those sections to the HDV 60i avi (I'm assuming thats the cineform codec) then place those three files on the timeline and render to DVDA mpg.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/5/2005, 6:45 AM

Thank you for your comment, ForumAdmin.

As written earlier, I can confirm that my machine stayed stable with 132 Cineform files - but the page file went up to 4 GB too. However, I did not try to work with 200 or 300 Cineform files. Maybe I am wrong, but I cannot imagine that 200 or 300 Cineform files would be possible in the timeline, given the size of the page file of 4 GB, reported with 132 Cineform files.

What we have seen in our German forum is, that different people work with different workflows. Yes, there are people who capture 20 or 30 minutes to one large m2t file. For those people the actual workflow offered by Vegas6b is fine, Gearshift will support them in a nice way too.

However, there are people who work with a huge number of small files too. One of our users has been for 6 month in New Zealand, has now 38 hours m2t files. And his way to organize this huge project has been to cut small m2t files and sort the best sceenes together. Maybe not an ideal workflow, but a system that crashes with 60 m2t files will never allow to cut and edit m2t material from such a project in a "professional way".

Not everybody wants to work with Cineform intermediates - some people will prefer to render m2t files out directly, after cutting with proxys, replacing them back to m2t files as explained in the Vegas-6 manual.

Sony, remember that you have spezified 512 MB for HDV only - my system with 3.2 GHz and 1 GB RAM - so fully over your technical specification - crashes with 60 m2t files. Please work on that - with 60 m2t files Vegas is of limited use for serious HDV editing for users, who prefer to render m2t files directly.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/5/2005, 6:49 AM

An open letter from that user:

"Dealers and Distributors - International

Dear Sony Team

I am a professional HDV Filmer and I tried your Vegas6.0 Editing Software in the Videostudio from my colleague.
Now, my colleague has an other project, and I have to look for a new editing System. That is the reason wy I want to buy your Vegas+DVD Production Suite. There is one big problem. I experienced a very serious bug on Vegas 6.0 and at the moment I only can use this Software up to 60%. Your Internal Vegas HDV Capture produce m2t Files. If you captures more than 90 Clips (depends on Machine), Vegas will crash because the Win XP paging file climbs up to 2GB. I worked around this problem with cleaning every time the "Project Media".

But after capturing, I tried to place 90 pieces m2t clips on the timeline but Vegas came up with the error "none of the files dropped on vegas could be opened". If I place 50pcs. m2t Clips, I can work but the machine is very slow and instable because of the big Win XP paging file and I can not finish my project.

The same problem could be reproduced on several machines around the globe (have a look in your Forum or in the following German threat http://www.vegasvideo.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=3984&sid=). I work at the moment with DV proxies. After editing I will change the DV clips with the original m2t Clips.

My deadline for this project is on August 5. 2005. Are you able to solve this Problem until July 22. and send me the necessary updates and instructions that it works? If yes, I will order now the "Vegas+DVD Production Suite" with 40% off.

After I have tested and successfuly finished my project I will pay the rest. Please note, that I am not a big fan of work arounds. I do not want to convert my m2t Clips into intermediates. It costs a lot of time to render, needs much space on HDD and the Quality will be more worse. Your software is very useful, but at the moment it is not a "Professional HD Video and Audio Production" which sentence I can read when Vegas is starting up.

I hope that we can find an acceptable solution, so that I can finish my project in HDV before the deadline is passed.

yours sincerely

Michael Rast
Switzerland"