Burning Blu-Ray to DVD

299792458 wrote on 10/20/2007, 9:46 AM

I'm anxious to hear about this(!) I'm considering buying a PS3 solely for playback of my HDV video....either via hard drive or DVD discs (now that this is possible with Vegas, it's what I would like to do). Hope to hear more how things turn out with playback once you get it working!

Laurence wrote on 10/20/2007, 7:19 PM

It looks in the new features announcement like Vegas 8a does this, but it is misleading. Vegas will now burn an SD DVD from the Bluray tools menu, but it won't burn an AVCHD disc (which is HD video on a regular DVD-R) which is of course what many of us want.

You can do this, but not from Vegas. There are several programs including ones from Ulead and Pinnacle which will do this, but none yet from Sony. My recommendation is Ulead Movie Factory Plus HD as well as the HD Plugin Pack, but many people here are happy with Ulead Video Studio 11 or the Pinnacle programs which also do this.

Laurence wrote on 10/20/2007, 7:21 PM

By the way, you can burn a regular 1440x1080 HDV m2t file to data disc and the PS3 will play it just fine. The disc will show up as a data disc, but if you click on the m2t clip, it will play beautifully.

Also, on the discs you have already made, you can go the streams folder and play the clip as well.

LSHorwitz wrote on 10/20/2007, 8:44 PM

What a deceptive and useless "feature" !!!

Some of us were enticed into buying the Vegas 8 upgrade to get this new HD burning feature, and it is truly disgusting that the claim is so incorrectly and deceptively stated.

Larry

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/21/2007, 5:47 AM

"Vegas will now burn an SD DVD from the Bluray tools menu, but it won't burn an AVCHD disc (which is HD video on a regular DVD-R) which is of course what many of us want."

It burns an BDMV-Structure on a regular 4.3 GB DVD-R, for sure ist does (so called AVCHD-DVDs). Install an udf driver - and check that. Now - with Vegas 8a - you can do that directly from Vegas 8a, with Vega 8 you had to do create an iso-file on the harddisk, and burn that with tools like Nero to your DVD.

Unfortunately, what we see now in some first tests, is, that the Sony PS3 is not able to playback such AVCHD-DVDs. The PS3 is only able to read that disc as data structure - what is not really usefull for most of us. Other tools - like Pinnacle Studio or Nero 7.9x - are able to generate AVCHD-DVDs, that can be read also from the PS3.

But we have seen that some Blu Ray player are able to read the AVCHD-DVDs, as generated by Vegas: the Pioneer BDP LX70 works fine, the Panasonic DMP-B10 EGS works fine. Maybe - but not tested yet -the Sony BDP-S300 can also read the Vegas 8 material (but as said: I have not testet the S300 by now).

DJPadre wrote on 10/21/2007, 6:34 AM

Hang on..

ok so your saying that the BD in vegas burn to 4.3gb discs is using MPG2? bugger.. that sux dogs balls..

Now, does Vegas 8a allow you to at least print AVCHD-DVD content to ISO for burning using Nero?

Im yet to try this and im curious.
Ive only got a PS3 in any case, so my tests wont be as conclusive as wolfgangs, but i dont want to be burning coasters either..

Laurence wrote on 10/21/2007, 6:52 AM

Well the PS3 is the most popular Blu-ray player. If a disc doesn't play in a PS3, it doesn't play in most Blu-ray players. The second most popular Blu-Ray player is the BDPS-300. The BDPS-300 has trouble with Blu-ray format on a regular DVD too.

AVCHD discs burned on regular DVD=Rs will play on both the PS-3 and the BDPS-300. Samsung Blu-ray players won't play AVCHD discs, but a fix for this is likely just a firmway update away.

MozartMan wrote on 10/21/2007, 7:07 AM

@Wolfgang S.
Unfortunately, what we see now in some first tests, is, that the Sony PS3 is not able to playback such AVCHD-DVDs.
---------------------------------

Wolfgang,

Did you mean that PS3 is not able to playback AVCHD-DVDs created by Vegas 8 or in general?

As far as my PS3 it plays AVCHD-DVD disks great.

4eyes wrote on 10/21/2007, 10:03 AM

Vegas is not creating an AVCHD Disk. (Vegas can create AVC/H264 Files compliant to be burnt to a disk in the AVCHD format)

Vegas is creating a BDMV disk (with no menus).
You can still burn the disk to a dvd and play the video back using a software player on the computer.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/21/2007, 10:38 AM

"Did you mean that PS3 is not able to playback AVCHD-DVDs created by Vegas 8 or in general? As far as my PS3 it plays AVCHD-DVD disks great."

Funny - we have some reports from user in the German forum, telling us that they are not able to playback AVCHD-DVDs on the PS3, created with Vegas 8. Only as data discs, but not as Blu Ray BDMV structure (what we call AVCHD-DVD up to now).

How have you created your discs? Are we talking about BDMV-discs, generated by ***Tools/Burn Disc/Blu Ray Disc****? That does not work for some users in the German forum. They use the 50i template, since they are in the PAL area.

"Vegas is not creating an AVCHD Disk. (Vegas can create AVC/H264 Files compliant to be burnt to a disk in the AVCHD format)

Vegas is creating a BDMV disk (with no menus).
You can still burn the disk to a dvd and play the video back using a software player on the computer."

We are talking here about nomenclature only. What we have called "AVCHD-DVD", is a BDMV-format, burned on DVD-R or DL-DVD.
Vegas Pro 8.0 burns Blu-ray BDMV format to BD-R and BD-RE recordable media, and since Vegas 8a also to DVD directly (with lower data rates only).

MozartMan wrote on 10/21/2007, 2:00 PM

@Wolfgang S.
How have you created your discs? Are we talking about BDMV-discs, generated by ***Tools/Burn Disc/Blu Ray Disc****?
==========================================
No, I was not talking about Vegas 8. I don't have it yet.

I was referring to ability of PS3 to play AVCHD/BDMV disk structure from DVD disk in general.

One user on AVS forum dwonloaded Elephant Dreams demo video in VC1 video codec from Microsoft website, then authored AVCHD BDMV disk, then created ISO image of that disk, then posted link to that ISO file in one thread. I don't know what that user used for authoring.

I downloaded that ISO image file and burned to DVD+RW disk with ImgBurn. PS3 plays that disk as AVCHD perfectly. There are no menu thogh. When I press menu on BD remote, it starts playing video from the beginning.

bartkean wrote on 10/21/2007, 4:41 PM

I did it! I burned a 1920x1080i Blu-Ray regular DVD in Vegas and found out how to play it on the PS3. I must say that 25Mbps looks alot better than 8Mbps. Ok, the PS3 still reads it as a data disc, but once you have selected the data disc in the main menu under video, press the ENTER button. Then the BDMV folder will show up, again press the ENTER button. Then scroll to the STREAM folder and press the ENTER button. Then press the OPTIONS button, the word PLAY should be showing just press ENTER and observe your video.

Hope this helps!
Bart

4eyes wrote on 10/21/2007, 10:45 PM

Wolfgang S.,
I did get this to work on a PS3 now, both making 2 separate dvd's. 1 using AVC & the other mpeg2. The PS3 displays the disk as an AVCHD Disk.

Method:
I created a 5minute video using Vegas Tools - Burn Blu-Ray etc.
After burning the disk as you know it doesn't play in the PS3 except in data mode from the STREAMS folder.
Using Vista I then copied the whole BDMV contents back to my harddisk, not the CERTIFICATE Directory.

Then using Nero I manually burnt the BDMV folder in UDF Manual_Mode-Physical Partition-UDF 2.6
Before burning the disk I replaced the original 2 files located in the root of the BDMV Directory:
index.bdmv
MovieObject.bdmv
and the same 2 files located in the BACKUP Directory (not necessary unless disk is damaged)

The 2 files I used to replace these 2 original files are derived from one of my AVCHD Disks that do play in the PS3 & other Blu-Ray Players. Looking at the files in binary mode they are using different designators.
After burning using these 2 different files the disk was displayed on the PS3 as an AVCHD disk & did play the video.

But, if you say the other Blu-Ray Players are playing the dvd discs vegas is making then the other Blu-Ray players should also be able to play a menued disk. (I would think). So that is what I need to try next.

So I did get it to work in the PS3, but had to hack/replace 2 files for it to work on the PS3. I would think they will just correct this in one of the PS3 firmware updates since other Blu-Ray players can play the disc.

DJPadre wrote on 10/22/2007, 1:42 AM

hang on, if the make AVCHD ISO mode from V8 then burning using Nero works, why bother trying anything else?
I mean surely the ISO method has already proven to work, and all sony did was try to take that step out and burn within Vegas which obviously pukes, so why not jsut go back to what works??

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/22/2007, 9:09 AM

@ 4eyes,

thank you for your efforts - a similar solution was developed by another user yesterday night ,using Encore CS3. His findings were very similar, beside the fact that menues do not work by using such a solution (what does not matter much, as long as we do not have menues from the Vega 8 avchd-dvd discs). So I agree, for us that is a solution at the moment - even if I hope that either Sony PS3 team will correct that with a firmware-Update, or the Sony Vegas team (no idea who should do that). Thank you again.

4eyes wrote on 10/22/2007, 9:47 AM

Wolfgang S.,
I'm almost done (are we ever done?), this simply takes so much time. I certainly will be happy when Blu-Ray burners & media are more affordable. My choice is leaning towards Blu-Ray because the videos contained on the Blu-Ray disk in the STREAMS folder is always there to access, even to import/copy or edit, both being in either avc or mpeg2 format. So far I can take any of these files from the STREAMS folder because they are compliant, copy them back to the harddisk, insert them into an authoring module and create a new avchd or bdmv disk without re-coding of the material.
I haven't found this to be possible using the HD-DVD format which puts the videos into an EVO Containter.

I have BDMV disks burnt to dvd's with mixed content, avc & mpeg2 both using Dolby audio 5.1, menus and all. The discs play in the computer fine using software to play.
Of course these disks show up as Data on the PS3. I will be taking these discs to the local consumer store & see if they play in the Panasonic/Pioneer & Sony Players.

As far as I can tell AVCHD Disks do not want to accept mpeg2 video, only AVC video. My only hopes of having this work in the PS3 is by fooling the PS3 into playing them. When you create a AVCHD disk with menus the menus, background music, titles are all in the avc format. The BDMV format programs are creating these menus, titles, in mpeg format.

The BDMV disks can hold the mixed content which is really nice.

You can export your videos in Vegas using "Render As" and make m2ts avc/h264 videos with Dolby 2/0 or 5.1. These videos are compliant. If you use MovieFactory 6+ with patch#2 & the add-on HD burning pack you can create AVCHD disks that will play in the PS3, menus, chapters, etc.
As long as you do not edit the videos in MF6+ and have the switch "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg Video" active (checked ON), your source avc/h264 videos from vegas will not be re-encoded. When you go into the burning stage (MF6+ will burn directly to the DVD) this will be obvious the videos are not being re-encoded (do not alter or videos at all within the program or this activates the re-encode switch, so make sure when exporting from vegas the video is complete).

This is the method I've been using and it's working for my setup. The PS3 displays the disks created from MF6+ as an AVCHD disk and plays them similar to a dvd with menus.
Hope this input helps somewhat, I still eventually want a Blu-Ray burner to use mpeg2 videos encoded at 30MBS-35MBS VBR, they do look the best when viewing on the PS3.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/23/2007, 2:56 AM

"I have BDMV disks burnt to dvd's with mixed content, avc & mpeg2 both using Dolby audio 5.1, menus and all. The discs play in the computer fine using software to play."

But that is something, that you have not done with Vegas 8 - since the little BDMV export function do not allow menues. I assume that you have done that with Moviefactory 6?

"As far as I can tell AVCHD Disks do not want to accept mpeg2 video, only AVC video."

Well, at least you can create such mpeg2-HD based BDMV structures with Vegas8. However, if that makes sense for DVDs, is a question. You have a lower capacity and playtime, for the computer you can work with the full data rate of 25 mbps, but such DVDs will not playback on Blu Ray player - since here you have to reduce the data rate to something about 8-12 mbps. And that results in a lousy quality, compared with AVC.

I am not sure, if Moviefactory allows us to generate such mpeg2-HD based BDMV-DVDs at all - since it makes not really sense.

For a BD-R the world may look quite different.

"You can export your videos in Vegas using "Render As" and make m2ts avc/h264 videos with Dolby 2/0 or 5.1. These videos are compliant. If you use MovieFactory 6+ with patch#2 & the add-on HD burning pack you can create AVCHD disks that will play in the PS3, menus, chapters, etc.
As long as you do not edit the videos in MF6+ and have the switch "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg Video" active (checked ON), your source avc/h264 videos from vegas will not be re-encoded. When you go into the burning stage (MF6+ will burn directly to the DVD) this will be obvious the videos are not being re-encoded (do not alter or videos at all within the program or this activates the re-encode switch, so make sure when exporting from vegas the video is complete)."

That is a significant finding - what templates do you use here exactly? Assuming that you have 5.1 project, you have both the "Blu Ray" templates, but also "AVCHD 5.1". What exactly did you use?

kairosmatt wrote on 10/23/2007, 7:06 AM

I'm considering getting some content onto Blu-Ray very soon, and was wondering if anyone has had any success with Encore CS3?

4eyes wrote on 10/23/2007, 8:18 AM

Yes, search though the forum, a user was very successfull without any problems.
Sony has a new Blu-Ray burner being released.

4eyes wrote on 10/23/2007, 8:25 AM

Wolfgang S.,"I have BDMV disks burnt to dvd's with mixed content, avc & mpeg2 both using Dolby audio 5.1, menus and all. The discs play in the computer fine using software to play."
But that is something, that you have not done with Vegas 8 - since the little BDMV export function do not allow menues. I assume that you have done that with Moviefactory 6? Yes In Vegas you have a choice of the format to create the BDMV disk, mpeg2 or avc, dvd's containing mpeg2@25MBS CBR play in the PS3, the same data-rate (3X-DVD) that everyone has been using on the Toshiba hd-dvd players.Many players can play the HD material from a dvd at this high data rate, some such as the Avel-Ilink player2 you need to put the reader into HighSpeed Mode, not the PS3 though, plays them without any problems, the PS3 is more like a computer though isn't it. I installed Linux on it to a 250gig sata drive, it's alright but not practical except for having a 250gig drive in the PS3, so I don't use the PS3 for Linux anymore since my other Linux systems are more practical. A point you bring up is if the consumer Blu-Ray players can play the dvd at this highdata rate, good question, have not been able to test this on other Blu-Ray players yet, I would think yes, the AVCHD spec is 18MBS maximum-bit-rate for DVD, the AVC spec for Blu-Ray must be much higher, I've viewed a few Blu-Ray Movies encoded in Variable Bir Rate AVC and the data-rates were very high, Average 21MBS-25MBS & peaks hitting 30MBS-35MBS (Blu-Ray Casino Royal),
I am not sure, if Moviefactory allows us to generate such mpeg2-HD based BDMV-DVDs at all - since it makes not really sense.It's possible, burning the dvd is tricky after creating it on the harddisk. "You can export your videos in Vegas using "Render As" and make m2ts avc/h264 videos with Dolby 2/0 or 5.1. These videos are compliant. If you use MovieFactory 6+ with patch#2 & the add-on HD burning pack you can create AVCHD disks that will play in the PS3, menus, chapters, etc.
That is a significant finding - what templates do you use here exactly? Assuming that you have 5.1 project, you have both the "Blu Ray" templates, but also "AVCHD 5.1". What exactly did you use? None, you create your own custom templates, apply them when setting project settings or using the export features. Similar method as in Vegas templates creating your own and applying them when needed. MF6+ is a simple program with complex features, also doesn't always run on everyones computer.
Maybe mpeg2 BDMV format on dvd is a copyright licensing restriction, I'm tending to go with straight AVCHD anyway as final distribution. I agree with you that dvd's don't hold that much HD@25MBS, hopefully a better storage medium will soon be affordable. Looks to me like the AVCHD format will most likely be the path to take for HD on DVD's to replace SD Dvd's with menu's, chapters. Even at that HDV encoded down to 720x480/576 @ 4-6MBS VBR AVC can produce approx 2hours of video on a single layer dvd, in my opinion the video doesn't look bad at all for general distribution among the family, or a demo of the Blu-Ray HD version of a production.

jonask wrote on 10/23/2007, 1:31 PM

I'm partly guessing here, but it seems to be some terminology confusion here.

Isn't so that commercial movies on BD-ROM uses the application format called BDMV, and that video cameras supporting writing to disc use the AVCHD format, and that Vegas 8 creates discs with the commercial movie format BDMV, and not the AVCHD format, with the Tools/Burn Disc/Blu Ray Disc function?

And the confusion thing is that both the "commercial movie format BDMV" and the AVCHD format use the same file structure. They both use the BDMV folder. From 4eyes' post above, it seems like the files index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv contains information about which format it is.

The PS3 plays AVCHD on DVD fine, but not the "commercial movie format BDMV" on DVD. For the latter one, you need to go down into the STREAM folder and start the video stream manually. Hopefully, Sony will support this better in the future...

4eyes wrote on 10/23/2007, 6:53 PM

As far as I've learned to date what you posted seems to be the way it is.
The AVCHD disk though doesn't need all the directories that a BDMV disk needs.
AVCHD disk uses AVC/H264 and is burnt to DVD.
BDMV disk uses mpeg2/avc h264/and the other V1 I think it's called, so you can use mixed content on a Blu-Ray Disk (even standard definition Mpeg2).

Seems like an awful lot of work just to make a menu (writing BDMV to DVD).
Easier and actually better to just use AVC/H264 and burn a AVCHD disk.

There is also a BDAV format disk also. This is the format that the blu-ray recorders will use to write to re-writeables (no menu's, only playlists).

Wolfgang S. wrote on 10/24/2007, 3:32 AM

"A point you bring up is if the consumer Blu-Ray players can play the dvd at this highdata rate, good question, have not been able to test this on other Blu-Ray players yet, I would think yes, the AVCHD spec is 18MBS maximum-bit-rate for DVD"

I have been able to test that long time ago - based on early Betas of Vegas 8. BDMV-structures on DVD, based on AVC with the full data rate, can be played back in at least some Blu Ray consumer players (runs fine on Panasonic DMP-B10 EGS and Pioneer BDP-LX70, but not on the older Samsung BDP 1000). On the same players, mpeg2-HD based BDMV-stuctures on DVD did not work fine with 25 mbps - here we had to reduce the mpeg2-HD datarate down to 8 to 13 mbps. That is the reason why the Vegas 8a templates foresee a lower data rate for DVDs.

"None, you create your own custom templates, apply them when setting project settings or using the export features. Similar method as in Vegas templates creating your own and applying them when needed. MF6+ is a simple program with complex features, also doesn't always run on everyones computer.
Maybe mpeg2 BDMV format on dvd is a copyright licensing restriction,"

No, I do not think that you have an copyright issue here - you have the possibilty to generat mpeg2-HD based BDMV-DVDs both in Vegas 8a, but also in Encore CS3. The point is more that you have to reduce the data rate.

But the real question was what export settings you have used for your material when rendering the material in Vegas 8, to avoid that Moviefactory renders the material again. Could you post here some more details - if it was a template generated in Vegas, what settings did you use for that Vegas-template?

Also, we see significant issues in the data structure with material encoded with the Sony AVC-Encoder in Vegas - the material from Adobe CS3/Encore CS3 seems to be more stable. You see that if you try to move forward/backward in a fast way on an BDMV-DVD, using Power DVD Ultra - the Vegas based material tends to show blocking, whilte the CS3 based material does not show that.

The AVC-Material generated when rendering from the timeline to Blu Ray in Vegas8 - found in the stream directory - seems to be much better then the AVCHD 5.1 template material. So one idea would be, to use that material for authoring with Moviefactory 6+ and the HD-powerpackage.

4eyes wrote on 10/24/2007, 7:21 PM

From memory, not at a windows machine right now.
In Vegas I have a HDV file on the timeline & my Project Properties are HDV 1080i @ 25MBS CBR, UFF, De-interlace=none, audio 48khz Stereo or 5.1.
Render As -> Sony AVC (mp4, m2ts, avc)
Choose Default Template or any Blu-Ray template -> Custom *Make sure to save this new template your making*
1st tab - "BEST" for rendering Quality
System Tab - Last right hand tab (System Tab) change drop-down box to m2ts extension (container format).
Audio tab check-ON "Audio" to be embedded, match the Dolby Audio settings to your project properties (this is mandatory with my setup or errors, so if you select 5.1 make sure your project properties are 5.1 before making the custom template 5.1 or export will generate an error). Either way the export audio settings need to match your project settings.
Video Properties should say "AVCHD" (because you selected m2ts), 1440,1080, UFF.
To change the default 15MBS type in directly in the video_bit_rate selection box. Full all numeric numbers, no abbreviations. I generally use 12 to 14 depends, even less (6 - 10) example: 14000000.
Rename the original template & save this new template as Blu-Ray AVCHD. You must save the template, pretty sure if you started with the default template.

Then render the file.

In MF6+ make sure under the GEAR Icon "Do not convert compliant Mpeg Files".
Also in MF6+ under the GEAR Icon "Change Mpeg Settings" -> Customize make these settings match your source videos parameters, whatever settings you make it this screen will be the settings MF6+ uses to encode the menus, background audio etc (or a slideshow). It's easier to make your own custom template and apply the template as the project settings.

This works for creating AVCHD or BDMV disks in MF6+.

Note: To export AVC with Vegas Pro 8 I needed to activate the license, something with the dolby audio.

I also get the blocking when fast forward or jumping when playing back, Vegas avc & ulead avc & Nero avc.
The PS3 doesn't show any blocking with fast forwarding or reversing.

Another thought, if you have already created avchd disks with vegas. Then using Vista just use the avc/h264 videos in the streams folder. They should already be compliant and MF6+ shouldn't re-encode them.
Or, if your using XP then put the avchd disk in the drive, in MF6+ use the Import from DVD/avchd disk feature to grab the avc/h264 file. That file will be put into the Capture folder that resides under your assigned "Working Folder", the avc file will have an extension of .m2t.
I don't think MF6+ will re-render the imported m2t file, it's still compliant.
Copying the m2ts file using Vista is easier.
You may not have to re-encode the videos at all in Vegas unless making new avc/h264 files, the videos on your existing disks made by Vegas should already contain compliant h264 files.